Angela Connell-Richards: 0:26

Welcome to the RTO Superhero Podcast with my special guest, lauren, who we're going to be talking today about supporting students with disabilities and under the revised standards. What do RTOs now need to do? Welcome, lauren, to the RTO Superhero Podcast.

Lauren Hollows: 0:45

Hello Angela. Thank you for having me back. I'm surprised you keep letting me in here.

Angela Connell-Richards: 0:51

I love our conversations. We could talk all day about all these sort of things we literally could talk all day, yeah, yeah.

Angela Connell-Richards: 0:59

So in our last podcast we talked about support services and we had a very robust conversation about what we think the changes are going to be. Now we're going to drill into disabilities and what is it that RTOs need to be mindful of and, in particular, looking at legislation around disability support and what we now need to apply when it comes to support services with disabilities. So let's start with you what are your thoughts around the compliance requirements and what RTOs may need to put into place now when it comes to disabilities?

Lauren Hollows: 1:40

Yeah. So I mean, look, this is probably one of the few RTO standards where I do have like a bit of an issue with one of the few RTO standards where I do have like a bit of an issue with one of the points. So I think reasonable, like the reasonable adjustment stuff, there was like a reference to it in the old standards, so there was, I think I think it's just good that they've kind of fleshed it out now in a little bit more detail. And I think mainly this is going to relate to like 2.1, 2.2 and how 2.1, 2.2 mesh into 2.4, which is like really making sure that we understand if there's a disability need and how you're going to input that in the workplace. I guess and I understand the standard A, but A says vet standards.

Lauren Hollows: 2:23

Vet students are supported to disclose their disability if they wish, and that's, I guess that's. My only issue is that, having worked in a lot of colleges where we've got high need students, quite often students are reluctant to disclose a disability because they're worried that like they won't be let in, they'll be told you know no sorry, you know no luck, and I especially see this in like the vet in school space. So but say if they wish. I think it leaves. My concern is it leaves a gap for RTOs whereby the student doesn't disclose it and then it comes to a head later on down the track.

Lauren Hollows: 3:09

You know, like, for example, in telecommunications, we have to know if the student is colorblind. If you're colorblind and you're trying to work in telecommunications, you can electrocute yourself right. So that's something where it's it's super important that we understand. If you have a disability, um, it's also important for that. We understand if you have a disability. It's also important for me to understand if you've got, you know, add dyslexia, so that I can put support mechanisms in place. But for some of the other disabilities that you might have, it could have a very real safety impact on you know, on things later on down the track. Okay, like you know, if you've got, you know I'm blanking on the disorder at the moment, but, like you know, confrontational disorders and things like that whereby you're potentially if I don't- manage your patients.

Lauren Hollows: 4:02

Yeah, I mean, look, low-functioning Asperger's can definitely be. You know you can present some of that as well. But there are certain issues where, if I don't know what your disability is I mean even things like you know anemia or you know blood sugar issues and stuff like that If I don't know about that and we've got, we're're running our practical workshop, we're doing construction, it's a little bit hot, we're running a little bit late, we missed our break and I don't know what your condition is, and you that you're now passed out in my you know you're then passed out with power tools in your hands, right, I feel like that, if they wish, is a bit of a risk. So I think it's gonna, it's the impetus is gonna be on rtos to push in that area a little bit and to have information specific to their courses as to like you need to, just like we really do want to know and please do disclose if you've got any student needs. These are some of the student needs we need to understand from a safety perspective, you know, and other needs we would just like you know. The more you share with us, the better we can adapt to make sure the training is going to be suitable for you, right?

Lauren Hollows: 5:16

Um, so I think a is problematic with that particular language and I, because it's quite wishy-washy, I'm actually hoping that it's going to be taken out when they go through that legal process. You know, as you wish, it's not. From a legal perspective, it's problematic. So I'm hoping that that little statement is going to be pulled out. If it does, then that's fine. But it puts like the thing is, is that with RTOs, it is going to put a very clear emphasis on the fact that you guys do need to figure out the students that you're accepting. Once you take on that student, you are taking on the needs of that student and you will be required to account for them If you are silly enough not to find out about them before the course and now, all of a sudden, you're going to have to adapt your facility, or you're going to have to adapt your training, or you're going to have to find alternate workplaces that are going to be able to be suitable for these students. That's your fault for not doing your due diligence in the enrolment process.

Angela Connell-Richards: 6:12

Yeah, yeah, and I, one of the things that, um, I see will be uh, yeah, I, I'll go back first. I agree, um, I think we need to know if there are disabilities. While she was talking, I was thinking, actually, we should know about health conditions as well, particularly if we're working with high-risk equipment and they're going to be driving a forklift truck or something like that. So, yeah, how do we circumnavigate that? So, yeah, how do we circumnavigate that? But I think the biggest part is what I experienced as an RTO.

Angela Connell-Richards: 6:54

When I ran my own RTO, most people didn't feel in that they had a disability and we had no idea until it raised its head during. So, in particular, mental health, yeah, yeah. And then it comes up and, like, we had a student that was off her medication for bipolar and had an episode within the classroom and we had no idea, no one knew that she was bipolar. No idea, no one knew that she was bipolar. So, uh, how do we? How do we like, if we go to a, a point where that, if you wish, you can put this in, well, how then do we deal with that? How do we deal with that? And how does the trainer deal with that? And then that made me think about where we're talking about in the last episode, about support services and mental health do, and we're looking at how trainers can identify mental health issues. Well, how do they identify other disabilities as well, like we need to? So how do we adjust that? Anyway, I like that can be a huge part there. But also, I think what hasn't really changed is how we adjust the training to meet student needs and how do we implement reasonable adjustments. So, from my point of view, when it comes to reasonable adjustments with disabilities, first point is as long as the adjustment doesn't affect the training product requirements. So if they're able to still deliver the competency or be deemed competent with meeting all of the requirements, for example, first aid.

Angela Connell-Richards: 8:51

First aid, you cannot work on a mannequin on a table. You need to be able to get physically, get up and down off the floor. So that's just one example. But so if you're in a wheelchair, you're not going to be able to do the full CPR requirements when it comes to first aid. So and I've had this argument with RTOs before where they go, no, no, we can accept everyone. And I'm like, well, really Like, if someone drops to the floor and the only person around is someone on a wheelchair. Are they going to be able to perform CPR on me, like I think I would want someone around that would have, in particular if they require first aid as a work requirement? So if they're doing a first aid certificate as part of their work requirement, I wouldn't want them there to try and respond to me. I'd want them to be able to get up and down off the floor. Okay, so, when it comes to reasonable adjustment and implementing practical strategies, what are your thoughts around that?

Lauren Hollows: 10:22

So I agree with everything you said. First and foremost, it cannot impact like, if your performance evidence says you need to be able to do X, y and Z, we need to be able to do X, y and Z. So that's the first thing that needs to be considered as part of that. There are always been ways around that. So you know, we've had students in the past whereby they were doing like carpentry qualifications and we couldn't give them the full certificate.

Lauren Hollows: 10:48

But what we did was is we covered all of the units. We issued them with like 80 of the units. But there were like four units that you know we knew the person wasn't going to be able to do because they were in a wheelchair, um, but and then and then we managed to find them like a carpentry workplace. So it wasn't, it was more like um, find like a carpentry workplace. So it was more like joinery and carpentry. So it was more cabinet-making sort of skills.

Lauren Hollows: 11:12

But we were able to adapt, we were able to find an employer that still worked and they were still able to do the vast majority of the units, and so it still led them into employment, right, and that was kind of the big goal and outcome that we wanted to get for, you know, and that's the outcome we want for a lot of the students, and we've had many situations over the years where we've kind of gone well, we're going to deliver the theory on all of the units, we're going to be able to issue this many of the units, and we're still going to get you into an employment outcome right. And so do you get to get the students through the full qualification all the time? No, not necessarily does it mean that they can't participate at all?

Lauren Hollows: 11:50

absolutely not right um, you really want to figure out what the goal of the training is, and I mean for me, 99 of the time, the reason why a student's doing training is to get either get into employment or get into a better position within their career pathway, right? So look at how you can go about doing that, but go in with eyes open. And certainly in all of those situations we had individual student support plans where we said these are our responsibilities, you know, as part of this training. These are your responsibilities as part of this training. And here's how we're going to check in with each other on a regular basis to make sure that we're following up with this right. So I think, as long as there's clear communication in and around what can and cannot be achieved, while making sure you're meeting all of your other RTO standards and requirements and training package and things like that, you know it's absolutely fine. And I think even with like a lot of the government funding systems and stuff like that, they're supportive of that as well. Like I've done that via, you know, like funding mechanisms where we've gone to them gone, look, we're going to train them in this, but like we're letting you know now that they're not going to complete these units, we're only going to train them. They're going to do the theory because you know they've got a disability in XYZ. So I think, as long as like, as long as you understand and you've got the agreement and I think actually a lot of RTOs do a lot more of this than you know people talk about, like I've seen this through so many different RTOs. I've seen so many really cool adaptations done for students so that they can participate in courses or get into employment. Or you know, like, we've had students in Farnall's Pilbara that have been through just horrific, you know, violence and assaults and things like that, and we've put them like we've kept them going in classes because they've literally turned around and gone. This is the only safe space that we have and we've gone. Okay, we're just going to put you to another course, like because we know that this is the safe space that you've gone. We've had those conversations with government as well. So, ultimately, if you're having really clear communication and you're documenting that, I think it's fine.

Lauren Hollows: 14:10

Where RTOs go wrong is that they do all of these wonderful things and they don't document it. No, and so when it comes to, like you know we've got an event, this enrollment form, and the student assigned to say that I've got an event, this enrollment forum, and the student is signed to say that I've got ADD and dyslexia and OCD and X, y and Z. And then we go okay, and what was the support that was provided to that student? And the person goes well, we did this and we did this, and we did this and we did this. And then they go okay, where's your evidence of that? And then now Tia will sit there and go let me go talk to the trainer and maybe there was an email that was sent, like you know and then ask us to sit there and go. But according to your student support policy and procedure, you have a student support form that you utilise in all of these cases. And then the RTO goes uh-huh, yeah, we didn't fill that out.

Lauren Hollows: 15:04

Like and I feel for Rtos because I think it's like all the time I'm like you have a policy, you have a form and but like the trainer.

Angela Connell-Richards: 15:14

The trainer just adapts on the go, yeah, so, um, the trainer just goes right, okay, I, okay, I need to adjust the training and I need to fix this now. And they don't think about, you know, documenting it, and this is where you really do need to have. We've got AI, we've got all sorts of tech that we can use now where we could record what happened. You can go to your phone and just record how you made an adjustment and then put it onto the student file, so there isn't really any excuses, but it's like you just need to think about it. Okay, how do we do this?

Angela Connell-Richards: 15:53

And that, whilst we were discussing, I was thinking you know what we really should be training our trainers on how to make reasonable adjustments, in particular, for each individual RTO. What is a reasonable adjustment that can be for your training products that you deliver and I think there's a lot more vet PD now that trainers I will be required to undertake because of the new standards, and I think this would be a really good training on reasonable adjustment that's contextualised for your training products, on your scope of registration and your learner cohort, and what is the process that trainers need to do in order to first identify a disability, if it's not declared on the enrolment form, to how they document it.

Lauren Hollows: 16:47

I think the other area where I see RTOs stuff up quite regularly is that the communication never goes to the trainer in the first place, even where the student has. So you know, there's a couple of steps that need to happen in order for all of this to happen. One is that either a BDM or an admin actually need to read the enrollment form and need to include that information. So like, again, if you have a student management system that none of your trainers can access, what's your process of actually getting the trainers this information? You know, like I'm constantly like we're just finalizing event this for all of our rtos, um, and I've been going through on a weekly basis and talking to my rtos and my admin and going, guys, guys, I'm not seeing this information.

Lauren Hollows: 17:31

This information hasn't been uploaded, like you know, and disability is a big one, right Disability, and you know, the two things that probably are most consistently not entered into student management systems, into A-Vitness data, is information about disability and information about previous training, and that speaks directly to whether or not we should be offering students credit transfer. And half the time you know we'll be doing like a funded lodgement and it'll come back and it'll go. No, we've already paid the student to teach that unit and I'll go in and I'll go like the student said they'd completed a Cert 3. Please tell me somebody's gone back and asked them what insert three they did yeah, and they'll turn around and go oh no, and I'm gone.

Lauren Hollows: 18:16

Okay, have you got evidence of that? Like, can we please go back and ask the student what qualification they've done? And then I get the certificate and I'm looking, I'm going, great. So there's actually three credit transfers in two of the units we've already delivered and so now we've delivered those units, the student for some reason, has done the unit again, not mentioned it to the trainer, and we've now been paid. Like we now can't get paid to deliver that. So we've wasted the student's time, we've wasted the trainer's time. Like I get I. I get very frustrated, I get angry. Lauren comes out. That's why I scare some of my friends sometimes I do a lot of times.

Lauren Hollows: 18:51

But, um, you know, like we see it all the time and then the same disabilities, and so the person will disclose, like in the. In the case the person discloses this disability, has that been documented in the student management system and hasn't been passed on to the trainer? Like you know, it's, I've got, I've got um classrooms now where we've got two, we've got like up to two-thirds of the classroom, right, particularly in, like the vet in school space, two-thirds of the classroom will have a learning disability of some sort, right, be it dyslexia, add, you know, autism, like somewhere in the two-thirds of that class. Now, again going back to, like our last episode on student support services, what does student support services look like when two-thirds of your class has got a learning disability of some sort?

Lauren Hollows: 19:43

it's going to look a hell of a lot different than like a class where they're, you know, where you've got two students out of 25 that have got a learning disability you know if you've got 12 out of 18 students and I mean, you know, in a lot of these sorts of classes we literally have to cap training at 16 people because we know that there's going to be high rates of disabilities within the students or learning needs within the students, and so we go. We can't train any more than 16 students because you know 11 of them are probably going to have dyslexia or you know they're going to have some sort of behavioral issue or whatever. Like you can't put more than 10 of those kids into a class trainer, especially when, like, the trainer is teaching them how to you know swing bricks or you know use a power saw or things like that. Like, it's just not a good idea. It's just not, no, not a good idea.

Angela Connell-Richards: 20:36

No, in a previous life I used to deliver foundation skills courses. So with foundation skills, and it was, all of the students had a disability and I could only handle 10. Like you couldn't, I couldn't even barely handle the 10 because it was so difficult. They it was a variety of Asperger's, adhd, autism, like you name it. We had it in this, this group, and for me as a trainer it was draining. It was like I'd go home absolutely exhausted and I only taught the class once a week. Yeah, it was, yeah.

Angela Connell-Richards: 21:21

So how are we supporting the trainers who are working with students with disabilities? So and that's where we like I'll go back to the training and assessment strategy who are your learner cohort? That's how you determine the amount of support required. But I think also we really need to be identifying for that learner cohort. What are the reasonable adjustments that may arise with that learner cohort? What are the reasonable adjustments that may arise with that learner cohort? So that is documented within the training and assessment strategy so that the trainer is prepared and they have strategies in place. And I think, once again that comes back to we need to have vet training or PD or pd for those trainers so that they know how to reasonably adjust, in particular for that learner cohort and that training product.

Lauren Hollows: 22:20

Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah you know, utilizing systems, like you know, we need to be making sure that you know where you can make, make things easier for students, make it easier for the students. Like I'll be honest, the vast majority of students are far better working on a phone, you know, and typing an answer into a phone than they are physically handwriting it nowadays. You know, like most of our students, if they're under the age of 25, they are going to be quicker typing it into a phone or typing it onto a computer than they are going to be quicker typing it into a phone or typing it onto a computer. Then they are going to be physically handwriting it. Like a lot of students get fatigued super, super quick, particularly males. They'll get fatigued really, really quickly with handwriting whereas, like, with typing or we're doing this Do that all day.

Lauren Hollows: 23:07

So utilise your systems, because then the other part of that is that if they're doing this and it's going into a system, you don't have a trainer that's having to, you know, hand it over and collate it all to admin. You don't have it. You don't have them, them getting lost and accidentally left in trainers boots. You don't have um admin that have to sit there and scan up copy after copy, after copy after copy, and then save it as an individual PDF file and then put it onto the students. You know seeing, like you know, there's all sorts of savings that you guys can utilize in your system. So, as these new things come on, be utilizing your systems and your processes to get business efficiencies so that you can have your trainers, trainers right, who are your generally your most expensive commodity and they are the one where, like you know, it's time is going to make the most difference. Make it so that when they are like, the time that you are paying them is going to be worth, like doing worthwhile tasks. So if they're not directly training and assessing, then you know, and then they should be either undertaking PD. Make the marking as absolutely easy as possible for them and I even recommend, like, where possible, you know, utilize your trainers a little bit more effectively.

Lauren Hollows: 24:26

Use your less experienced trainers to be doing your online marking. Don't use your like really good on-the-ground trainers. Um, you know, you've got certain trainers that are great with their practicals and great with their training skills. Utilize them for that. Utilize your guys that are a little bit like less or maybe they're coming to the end of their training career and so they like to, like you know, talk a little bit about themselves to. You know, like, move your trainers around. You don't have to have one trainer and assessor only dealing with one group.

Lauren Hollows: 24:58

Right, you can move people around and move them into doing the things that they are best at doing, like we've got trainers who all they do is they do the online marking because they're very detail-oriented, they're really good at identifying collusion and ai and all of that sort of stuff and they're and they enjoy it. So they're happy to go back and forth with students and provide that support and work through with the theory and stuff. And then we've got other trainers that like really hate paperwork but they make they smash out, they smash out classroom like they love being in the classroom, they love being in the classroom, they love being in a practical setting and they provide fantastic verbal feedback and they really do build the skills of their students and stuff like that. Like you know, think a little bit outside the box in how you go about structuring your training and where you allocate people to, and I think also, where you're talking about the digital devices, much easier to adjust your training with digital devices.

Angela Connell-Richards: 25:55

Like, if they've got, for example, they're colourblind, they could change their digital device so that it meets their requirements, so they're able to read everything.

Angela Connell-Richards: 26:11

And there's, you know, a range of different things that you can do with digital devices that makes it so much easier, such as the question can be read out to them by their phone so they can just get it read out aloud, which will make it much easier. So I think, yeah, I love that idea about the digital devices and I think we have like 90% of the population over the age of 16 has a mobile phone or some sort of digital device. So I don't think it would be unreasonable. But, once again, we need to make sure, if you are going to use digital devices, that it's very clear on the marketing that the pre-enrolment information that they will be required to have a digital device. So that just came to head when I was, uh, saying that. I was thinking, oh, yes, we're going to make sure we tell the students that they need to have a digital device if it's required you cannot offer a digital device to them because that is majority of funding contracts, that's you know yes, you could borrow.

Angela Connell-Richards: 27:10

You could mostly have a number of ipads there or something that you could uh lend to the students and that's recommended, but just just no, no incentives.

Angela Connell-Richards: 27:20

We know no incentives. We don't want to go there again. No, definitely not. Okay, thank you so much once again, lauren. This has been fantastic, I think.

Angela Connell-Richards: 27:37

In summary, when it comes to student support with disabilities, I don't think a lot has changed compared to the current legislation. I think what has changed is there's more of an emphasis on how we're going to implement that within our RTOs, and also being aware for the trainers so that they understand what that process is, with reasonable adjustment. I think it's just going to be more of a focus on that and I've said it already, that reasonable adjustment is relevant to the learner cohort and the training product. I think, in a nutshell, that's what we need to focus on. I think there's a lot of great strategies that people can put into place and, with all the tech that we have now with AI, there are so many things that we can do to assist students to get through their training, and I think it's been so good hearing from you and your point of view and your experience as well. That's been fantastic hearing about your experience with working with RTOs and disabilities.

Lauren Hollows: 28:42

Thank you so much for having me, Angela, and I can't wait to catch up again next time.

Angela Connell-Richards: 28:45

Yeah, we're looking forward to it. Next month, we're going to be having a look at clear and accurate student information, so very, very important area. So looking at how your transparency of the information that you're providing to the students prior to course commencement, but also during whilst they're doing their training so we touched on that with support services and also ensuring that the training product that they're doing their training so we touched on that with support services and also ensuring that the training product that they're enrolled in is actually suitable to the student. So I'm looking forward to catching up with you again next month and having a chat about those topics. Thanks again, Lauren, and bye for now.

Lauren Hollows: 29:26

Thanks, Ash.

Angela Connell-Richards: 29:32

And, of course, to real estate.