Angela Connell-Richards: 0:35

Welcome to the RTO Superhero Podcast with me, angela Connell-Richards and my guest speaker, maychek, who's here also helping me to break down these standards. Well, it's finally here. You had your head in the sand and you didn't know what was happening on Friday. Well, the new standards for RTOs 2025 have officially landed. After three years of waiting, drafting, consulting and speculating, maycheck, can you believe we're actually talking about the final version today?

Maciek Fibrich: 1:07

Final version legislated in there in place, absolutely.

Angela Connell-Richards: 1:12

It's just crazy that it feels like so long since we've been working on this and I remember in 2019, we were talking about the skills reform so it's just been around for so long, so we've been.

Angela Connell-Richards: 1:29

That's been 10 years since the last change yes, and 10 years yes, and about bloody time. It's taken long enough. So we're going to be breaking down what we think is different and what we think is just basically what we had before, maybe just some refinements on it. But we've been dissecting all of the draft policies, the practice guides, the draft standards and all that sort of stuff and then holding our breath, waiting for this to finally happen. Now we finally have our outcome standards, compliance requirements and credential policy. What's your initial take on it, maychek?

Maciek Fibrich: 2:12

Look, I think it's great that we finally have something concrete that we can work towards, because I think everyone's sort of been looking at developing, getting ready for this July 1 start date. But it's always been a little bit nervous Is something going to change? Is something going to still be, you know, unknown? So it's great that we've now got that clear guidance from it's legislated, it's ready to go. We can now work off a concrete document and get ready for the July 1 start date.

Angela Connell-Richards: 2:42

Yeah, and I think also having ASQA confirmed that their transition, what they're going to be transitioning starting from the 1st of May, and I think that's really important it means we can actually get down to business now without having to worry about a federal election or anything else changing in our sector. So I've already done a podcast on the new standards, but I really wanted to hear your point of view of these and from what I've seen, is really quality area one and two not a lot of changes. Training and assessment is pretty much essentially the same and trainers don't need to upgrade their qualification anymore.

Maciek Fibrich: 3:28

What are your thoughts on that? Look, finally, I think we've got some common sense approach and you know it's going to upset, I think, a lot of TAE providers who relied on, I guess, that upskilling and I've never called it upskilling where you go from a Cert IV to a Cert IV. I've always sort of spruced the whole concept. If you're going to upgrade from a cert four, do a diploma and, and you know, progress your skill, and then you know you've always got that whole uh fallback on diploma or higher and never had to worry about upgrading anyway. Um, but it's, it's that culture of continuous improvement in yourself that I think also needs to be emphasised. So great that we don't need to update to a new Cert 4, at least from 2010,. But it's still, you know, one thing that we really need to make sure that with all of our RTOs, is that we've got this culture, that it's not just that you've got it and that's it, that you do continue updating your skills, both from a vocational perspective and a training and assessment perspective.

Angela Connell-Richards: 4:29

Yeah, and I think that's important for everyone. The amount of times and this is one of the things I really like about the new standards is they're now making a requirement that everyone in the team should do vet professional development, because the amount of times I've gone into an RTO and the staff have no idea about them Absolutely.

Maciek Fibrich: 4:50

You're so right. And the concept. Again, we spoke about it a few last month, I think. Where it's that concept of, oh, that's the compliance consultant or that's the compliant manager's job? That concept should never exist if the whole of the organisation understands what that culture of compliance is about and understands the standards.

Angela Connell-Richards: 5:10

Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think, when it comes to understanding why we're doing the different things that we do within an RTO and it's not like the management making us do this, it is a requirement under the legislation of what we need to do so I think that's really good that they've uh making it that all team uh should should be undertaking and including the ceo and directors, which uh often uh get left sort of think no, no, I'll send everyone else to that, I don't need to know about the legislation.

Maciek Fibrich: 5:47

Well, at the end of the day, the buck stops with them. So you know they do. Whilst they might have delegator authority and delegate power, at the end of the day it still is their responsibility. They're the one signing off on everything.

Angela Connell-Richards: 5:59

Yeah, yeah, totally, and they should understand what the ramifications are if you are non-compliant, because they're the ones that are going to be effective. Yeah, yeah. So when it comes to quality area two, vet student support, I didn't see a lot of change, other than the First Nations. They didn't emphasise the mental health, so it's just more holistic Thank. God for that yeah.

Maciek Fibrich: 6:22

And I'm a huge advocate of mental health, don't get me wrong, but the can of worms that would open up in terms of where do you draw the line was always going to be a challenge.

Angela Connell-Richards: 6:32

Yeah, it's more of a holistic wellbeing now. So instead of focusing on so that was a good thing that dropped down, because I think if we're going to bring in mental health, we need to do it slowly. We need to look at overall wellbeing, so I think that's a great way to start as well. Okay, so then we get to Quality Area 3, which is Vet Workforce, and there's been some significant changes in there with regards to trainers and assessors and what are their requirements, but also PD, but we're just talking about one of the really interesting ones is quality area for governance and looking at risk management. What are your thoughts about the new risk management requirements?

Maciek Fibrich: 7:24

Yeah. So, as we were saying, you know, it's that pendulum swinging back, isn't it? We had this for many years. We had our risk strategies and our risk matrix that we had to do and that sort of went out 10 years ago and here we are back, and I don't think it's a bad thing in any way whatsoever. I think there's a lot of depth to these requirements under standard 4.3. And a lot of people, just like the concept of not understanding the term systematic self-assurance, will also struggle with what risk management is all about. You know the difference between a risk and, ultimately, a hazard in that respect, and really just trying to work out how to implement that. And so the main things that I've seen there is again that a lot of RTOs, like most businesses, struggle with financial management, and here we've got an RTO must identify, manage and review risks around financial position and performance and cash flow, and so that's interesting. And then we've got the concept of systems for identifying and disclosing apparent, real or apparent conflict of interest, which makes that quite interesting.

Angela Connell-Richards: 8:38

And then also, I think this, I think that's more to fit and proper person.

Maciek Fibrich: 8:42

Yeah, possibly, and also maybe around agents and who's selling what. And then what I think is a good thing is that whole concept of delivering to under 18s and that's been very much driven into these standards, about the risks to under 18 students, which again has been spoken about informally by some auditors but never sort of put into writing, even though the legislation has always been there. So these are all you know, I think, good, good practices, moving forward yeah, I think so as well.

Angela Connell-Richards: 9:16

Um, so I've been around in the industry for a long time as well and I remember when we used to do risk management under the old aqt we think it was 2007. I think it was in 2005 and 2007. And then it was gone when we got the legislation. But I think it is an area where a lot of RTOs it is a weakness, where they're not looking at the risks within their RTO and how they're managing those risks. I also found it very interesting the financial position and financial performance and I suppose that comes down to RTOs who haven't been financially viable and running insolvent and then shut down and then the students have nowhere to go. So I think that's good that they've got those in there. I love risk management. Coming from a WHS assessor and background in doing that sort of stuff, I think I used to do a lot of ergonomic assessments. I think it's a really good thing and I think it's going to be positive for RTOs to implement.

Maciek Fibrich: 10:24

Absolutely. It's like the concept of planning and business planning. The beautiful thing about risk management is that it's designed, it's not. A lot of people may see this again as a similar to a TAS document. It's just a compliance document. But if you change your approach and your thought process behind it from being oh, it's just, you know it's for compliance purposes to actually this makes good business sense, to help identify business risk, it's actually really positive, you know. But you've got to change that mindset away from compliance and legislation to good business practice.

Angela Connell-Richards: 11:03

Yes, a holistic approach for your whole RTO, because there's still there's a lot of businesses, not just education sector, who are still being affected by the pandemic and also with what's going on in America right now and things like that. So we do need to be managing this much better within the RTO, and that brings us to continuous improvement. So continuous improvement is something I never threw out. I always had it as a priority within our policies and procedures and under the new requirements, they've actually, instead of being two little clauses, it's now much more expanded. So it's stating that the RTO undertakes systematic monitoring and evaluation of the organisation to support quality delivery and the continuous improvement of services. So when you hear that, what is your thoughts around what an RTO needs to have in place in order to meet that requirement?

Maciek Fibrich: 12:02

Yeah. So I think the key word there is improvement of services as well. So support, quality delivery and continuous improvement of services. So it's not just about continuously improving your training products, it's everything, it's your service, it's the support that you provide students, potentially includes your marketing and so forth. And so when I look at the concept of continuous improvement, again, it's not a one time per year or one audit per year. It's about looking at how your organization incrementally, continually, looks at what can we do better with this. And you know, as I've got on my you know general profile, it's like how do you challenge the status quo of what you're doing to to make it better, as opposed to resting on what's there and going oh, that's good enough, right, and I think we sometimes get too comfortable in that position.

Angela Connell-Richards: 13:16

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I always, and I think we have talked about this before you should have a culture of continuous improvement throughout your organisation, and I'm glad to see that this has more depth to it than what we've had in the past, because basically it was like if you were non-compliant with any of the standards, you were non-compliant with 2.2, whereas this is now more focused on okay, what do you need to have in place? So one of it is that you've got to have mechanisms in place to lawfully collect and analyse data, including any feedback received from vet students, staff, industry, vet regulators, state and territory training authorities and employers, current or former students. So that is very much in line with the new data security requirements as well.

Maciek Fibrich: 14:09

Well, I was laughing at the word lawfully, right. That's interesting that they put that in there, because it sort of makes you wonder what was going on previously for them to want to put that in.

Angela Connell-Richards: 14:18

Well, you know, people used to go to gravestones and take their names off the gravestones and claim government funding.

Maciek Fibrich: 14:25

Let's not go back to the vet fee help days, that's fine.

Maciek Fibrich: 14:29

But yeah, look, I think the concept there of again, students, staff, industry, regulators and authorities and employers of current and former vet students I think that really encompasses all stakeholders or a lot more stakeholders.

Maciek Fibrich: 14:43

But again, I think a lot of people. Where they drop the ball with continuous improvement is a lot of organizations collect data, whether it's through process and necessity because the standards say so, or actively go out there. But where they sort of not necessarily fail but don't do things well is they don't take the data, then analyze it, work out how it needs to be applied across the organization and then start to implement those incremental changes. And often we find that a lot of RTOs will get all of this data, be overwhelmed by the data, put it to the side and go oh, that's just too hard basket, we won't worry about it for now, whereas it's really a matter of finding okay, how do we plan for these changes? What are the small things that we need to do along the way? What's the highest risk that we can identify at the moment? Again, going back to our risk strategy, focus on that as a priority and then filter our way down to the least highest risk.

Angela Connell-Richards: 15:48

Yeah, yeah, I remember the days of walking into clients' premises and there'd be a box of data they've collected.

Maciek Fibrich: 15:57

What have you done with that? What have you done?

Angela Connell-Richards: 15:58

with that. Hey, what have you done with that? Oh, we've collected it. The thing is, nowadays we're doing it all electronically, so there's no excuse really that you are not using that data, because even just using chat gpt, you can run that data through chat gpt and identify what the risks are or and what the improvements you can make, you know, based on your scenario.

Maciek Fibrich: 16:19

So, yeah, look, that's definitely, you know, based on your scenario. So, yeah, look, that's definitely where you know one of those things where I think our industry is copying a fair bit of criticism at the moment with AI and students cheating and so forth. But if we park that and look at what AI can do for us in business improvement terms, you know, it's so much more than just worrying about students cheating. It's actually, you know, focusing on how we can speed up those improvement processes.

Angela Connell-Richards: 16:47

Yeah, and you know, ai is one of my favourite subjects, but the future is AI, and what we when we just on that subject. When it comes to students using it, you should be teaching them how to use it in an ethical manner. Correct, I?

Maciek Fibrich: 17:06

agree.

Angela Connell-Richards: 17:07

Because they will use it in the future. Anyway, in the workplace, I use AI all day, every day, so it should be part of your role.

Maciek Fibrich: 17:16

I think and I know we're digressing a little bit and I don't really want to make this about AI, but I think you know people go oh, ai, plagiarism, like again, we had AI. We had plagiarism when we used to open up the physical Encyclopedia Britannica, right, when people used to copy it. Then we had Google Wiki, you know. So, every step along the way we've had these things. All AI has done is simplified the process Absolutely. Step along the way we've had these things. All AI has done is simplified the process absolutely. But again, if you use it as a teaching method and and encourage students not to do it and and put in policies around, if it's identified, you'll be asked to sit there and do it written out or however you decide to do it within your organization, then there's implications around that as opposed to simply accepting everything that you've got.

Angela Connell-Richards: 18:02

So yeah, yeah, and tying that back into the standards, that really comes under your risk management as well, 100% yeah. How are you going to manage that risk management?

Maciek Fibrich: 18:15

One thing I will say that and this came up in an audit a week or so ago is and it was a valid point that the auditor asked and in the current standards I think it's 8.5 maybe about legislation and informing staff and students of legislative changes.

Angela Connell-Richards: 18:36

Yeah. So one of the questions. The old standard is 5.4,. Yeah.

Maciek Fibrich: 18:42

Yeah, so well, the current standards that are still there at the moment. Talks about informing students and staff of legislative changes, and one of the questions that he actually asked is how have you informed your staff and students now about the impending and now changes that are coming, changes that are coming, and so I think that's one thing that any of the listeners at the moment that are running RTOs really need to look at. You know, either putting out a memo or a reminder to all their current staff and students of these changes and, potentially, what impact they might have, maybe an internal guide as to how the organisation will be changing, and so I think that's also important to remember that this is a legislative change and, as such, the organisation will be changing, and so I think that's also important to remember that this is a legislative change and, as such, the organisation needs to be informed, and internally, they need to be informed as well.

Angela Connell-Richards: 19:29

Yeah, yeah On that, I'm just thinking more about risk management and financial viability. So this is going to be an area where I think a lot of RTOs may struggle, particularly if they haven't been through a financial viability risk assessment. Some have never, others may have.

Maciek Fibrich: 19:51

Some remember the good old days of the old external auditing yeah.

Angela Connell-Richards: 19:56

How do you think RTOs should identify, manage and review risks related to financial position, performance and cash flow without being a financial advisor? What are some of the things that you recommend that they should do?

Maciek Fibrich: 20:11

Yes, as the disclaimer goes, anything I say is not to be used as financial information. That's correct. I'm not a financial planner, so, look, I think the most important thing is within any business, an RTO is just that. It's a business right. And so often we get too caught up in our compliance practices, our compliance processes and so forth, and as a CEO or as a manager or as a board, depending on what level you're at if you're not reviewing your finances on a quarterly or a monthly basis, then you're probably not running a proper business right.

Maciek Fibrich: 20:48

And so, whether it's having a meeting with your accountant on a quarterly basis, looking at your P&Ls, looking at your balance sheets and looking at how your I guess your lead indicators not just your KPIs are functioning, I think it's really important to look at your business as a whole and then go okay, what would happen if we had a downturn? And look at modeling, just like we do with our training and calendars and scheduling, what would happen now if we only had 10 people enroll in the next month versus 20? How would we deal with that? And so I think part of our risk management approach around that financial position, financial performance and cash flow is really about the what-if scenarios and how to manage those within a flexible, I guess, delivery model. And unfortunately, asqa has a little bit to answer for here, because ASQA, their timeframes of processing applications, et cetera, greatly impact on some of the way that an RTO can practice, whether it's removing from scope or adding to scope, and the dynamic nature of a business sometimes is sometimes negatively impacted by the delays within ASQA.

Maciek Fibrich: 22:07

So you know, there's not much we can do about that, though, but you as a business still need to account for that.

Angela Connell-Richards: 22:12

Yeah, and I think you should be putting it into your risk management assessment as possible. What are the possible scenarios? And one of the things that I've really read into this as well, and we're starting to see we've been seeing audits in the last six months is student to trainer and staff ratios. So identifying what those ratios are and so if you have a student drop, what should that be? If you have a student intake, then what should that be? I found also very interesting is that conflict of interest, so we fit in proper person and identifying and disclosing real or apparent conflicts of interest. What do you think they may be?

Maciek Fibrich: 22:58

Oh look, it's hard to know and any time you include apparent, it's open for interpretation and I get scared of those types of words, to be honest, because that really does open up.

Maciek Fibrich: 23:09

Oh well, you could have seen that this is going to turn into a conflict and really, I think in some respects, given that we are educating the next generation, in whichever industry that you're in, there is a level of expectation that there is transparency, and I think the conflict of interest scenario is there so that there is transparency over whether you know if you go get insurance or if you go get a loan. There's that transparency of commissions that are being paid and I think this is maybe where it's leading towards, where you know it's not under the counter sort of transactions that are encouraging enrolments or things like that. Counter sort of transactions that are encouraging enrolments or things like that, obviously after the vet fee helps saga of incentivising through laptops and payments and so forth. This is where I think all comes into it to say, look, just be transparent with how you operate and if there is a conflict of interest, declare it it.

Angela Connell-Richards: 24:16

Yeah, yeah, and honesty is always the best policy. I always say, yeah, not declaring things and hiding things. Yeah, not the way to go. We also touched on the under 18s. What are your thoughts around that child protection?

Maciek Fibrich: 24:26

Yeah, look, I think there's great strength in doing this.

Maciek Fibrich: 24:38

Look, I think there's great strength in doing this, especially around the trades area, where we do have 16, 17-year-olds that are studying with adults.

Maciek Fibrich: 24:49

There's this often perception, depending on the industry that you're in, that swearing and carrying on can impact on someone's experience and I think we sometimes forget, as educators, as RTOs, that if we do have someone under 18, they actually are under 18. There's challenges that come with that, because there's very little literature post-secondary school, where someone is a let's call them an independent young adult under the age of 18 about what rights and responsibilities they have and are allowed to do with let's call it excursions or field trips, et cetera, within RTO. So I think there's a lot to unpack with that. But, generally speaking, if you are dealing with anyone under 18, whether it's in a first aid course or in cookery or in a trade, there is a level of responsibility that you take on board and whatever your processes are, it's, you know, in each state. It's important to look at your respective states, whether it's the child protection cards or whatever it is, and just make sure that's in place.

Angela Connell-Richards: 25:53

Yeah, yeah, and some of the things that we've identified that needs to be particularly under fit and proper person is police record checks, as well as child protection, depending on the industry sector. And one thing that I found very interesting is I know, know, how are you going to adjust your risk management depending on the learner cohort and how RTOs are going to implement this, and I see this as a common challenge with RTOs is okay, yes, we've got new legislation, but how do we implement that? And, in particular, if you've never done risk management before, what would be your top tips for what you need to do if you've never done a risk management register or policy before?

Maciek Fibrich: 26:44

Look, I think and just before I jump into that, I think what I also hope doesn't happen is a lot of the time in CRICOS you've got under the National Code, standard 5, you know, you've got all of these other requirements now that you have to do if you want to deliver to under 18 students, and so a lot of CRICOS providers will opt to avoid any under 18 students from an international market. So I also hope that this doesn't stop or discriminate, I guess, from an age perspective, domestic RTOs saying, no, you've got to be over 18 to study with us. But look, to answer your question, it starts with just understanding what a risk management approach is and whether, again, whether you use AI or chat, gpt or anything else to start to build that out for you. But primarily it's about looking at the standards, because it says you know where you offer to under 18, risks to their safety and wellbeing associated with the delivery are identified and managed. And then it says by having regard to the training content, mode of delivery and the national principles for child safe organization.

Maciek Fibrich: 27:50

So firstly, start by identifying that. Look at the content that you're delivering. Is it appropriate for under 18 students? Um is the the language of the of the learning material, appropriate um, and and then again, if you're doing face-to-face delivery, ensuring that where there is a potential risk identified, where you've got a mixture of under 18 and over 18, that that is managed and that the trainer and assessor actually understand that. And there is a process you know we do it in the construction industry through safe work method statements, et cetera, swims and so it's almost like doing the same thing being able to preempt your class to say, hey, in this class we're going to have three under 18s, there's a short course, but these are the things that you need to be aware of. Obviously, if there's any foul language or if there's any inappropriate behaviour, that that's controlled and managed accordingly.

Maciek Fibrich: 28:46

Yeah, yeah, so it comes down to the trainers as well as the management from a top-down approach, to implement those changes accordingly through, as we've spoken about continuous improvement, professional development and so forth.

Angela Connell-Richards: 28:59

Yeah, and that's what I was just about to say. I think it's going to be the professional development or team training that they do with their team so that they understand what they need to be aware of.

Maciek Fibrich: 29:11

Yeah, yeah definitely which one of them. Initially, when reading this goes okay, let's do a PD session on national principles of child-safe organisations. What is that? Let's look at that. It's never been addressed in the standards before, so let's unpack that and then provide guidance to everyone around that.

Angela Connell-Richards: 29:28

Yeah, yeah, and there are tools out there to be able to do that. Like, these national principles have actually been around for a while, but it's the first time I've seen it in legislation for RTOs Awesome. Well, we've gone through a lot today with risk management, so thank you so much for joining us today on the RTO Superhero Podcast. It's been an enlightening discussion about the new standards and, in particular, looking at risk management, and it is an area that we're both very keen on. And a big thank you to Maycheck for sharing your valuable insights and expertise.

Angela Connell-Richards: 30:11

As we move forward, it's crucial for RTOs to embrace these changes and ensure we are providing management of how we're going to manage this in the future and looking at all of those compliance requirements, but essentially, the best practices for sustainable RTOs. So stay tuned for more episodes where we will continue to break down each of the standards from a consultant's point of view and our years of experience in the training industry. So until next time, keep striving for excellence and I look forward to catching up with you again soon. Stop, all right, okay.