Angela Connell-Richards: 0:38

Welcome, superheroes, to another episode of the RTO Superhero Podcast. I'm your host, angela Connell-Richards, and today we're diving into the hot off the press revised standards for RTOs, which were released on Friday, the 14th of March, and joining me is the amazing co-host, lauren Boone-Hollows, an expert in RTO compliance and advocate for quality training outcomes. Together we're breaking down the changes and what's going to be the impact on RTOs and why these changes matter and what they mean to you as an RTO owner manager. Compliance officer. Lauren, welcome back. Thank you very much for having me. It's always awesome having you here, lauren. I love having our chats, um and particular, because we just love compliance so much. We're crazy, but anyway, okay. So what were you, what were your initial thoughts when they, when the standards dropped on friday?

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 1:42

um, well, the first thing was okay, cool, great, they're actually finally out. We know that from one 725, we're gonna have to be meeting this new standard. Um, which was really, really good um, and I do.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 1:55

What I will say is I do like the the structure of having the outcome standards sitting above it and then having the performance indicators sitting below it. I I know that ASQA was working with the legal team on refining the instrument for quite a long time and I think that that particular structure and they have you can see work that's been done in order to try and make those performance indicators clearer for RTOs so that they do have something you know very clear to work to, and certainly I think that that particular structure is a lot better than just having these outcome standards, which were definitely a lot more like. They were just far more open to interpretation. So I think that you know you're never going to get anything perfect, but given all the work that's been put in, I'm relatively happy with where we've kind of arrived at. I think that most of this stuff is very workable for RTOs.

Angela Connell-Richards: 2:58

Well, they've done a lot of consultation.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 3:00

So I don't think I've ever seen so much consultation on legislation for the training sector yeah, but it does have such a huge impact as well and, like, obviously, asqa's, asqa's is as impacted by it, by the RTOs who are being regulated by it. So I think that, as I said, I think what they've come to and that structure that they've come to is is a more workable than what we were initially presented with two years ago.

Angela Connell-Richards: 3:31

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So there's been a lot of to and fro and I'm glad that they've taken on board a lot of the feedback that was received into the incorporation. Were there any major surprises, or do these align with what you were expecting from the draft standards?

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 3:50

I mean, look, as I think we've spoken about before, you and I have both been rewriting all of our policies and procedures, understanding that this is kind of what we were going to have to be working with. I don't see any major changes in that. I think some of the definitions that have come out have been really good. It's nice to see that. I was really happy with, for example, 1.3. I just thought the way that they put the performance indicators on 1.3 with very clearly stating assessment tools are reviewed prior to use to ensure assessment can be conducted in a way that's consistent with the principles of assessment rules of evidence.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 4:26

I was. There's just no question now, right, we're not going to give some vague definition of validation, pre-validation, moderation, like something that's just been argued so much. Um, it just made it very, very clear that you know with 1.3, yes, you're going to have to check that your tools are going to be fully compliant, so there's no excuse for, oh well, I bought them and I was given a guarantee that they were compliant. No, you actually have a responsibility to make sure that that's definitely going to be the case. And then, after you deliver the training, after you deliver the training, you've got an obligation to make sure that the assessment practices and judgments right. And that word having that word in 1.5, that you're checking the judgments that have been made it just removes all of that lack of clarity of like before and after. So that definitely does have to be done.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 5:25

My interpretation of that is basically you have to review every single assessment tool and validate every single assessment tool prior to using it. And I mean like on a practical level. Why would you not Like, why would you deliver an assessment tool that you don't?

Angela Connell-Richards: 5:43

even know how to use Exactly tool that you've never looked at, never used Exactly.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 5:46

So I think that it's going to be you know, some of those sorts of things for some RTOs is going to be really problematic, yeah, and they're going to be going. Oh well, we've got, you know, 32 qualifications on scope and we've got over 1,000 assessment tools and we've only ever bought them from providers and we've never actually checked them ourselves. Well, that's just not okay.

Angela Connell-Richards: 6:11

One of the things that I recommend is and when I was reading into the draft standards I thought this would be the best method would be trainers actually complete the assessment tools so that they can see what it's like, what the process is like, and then they can get a better understanding. Then we can go to validate, because, if you can, if you've just bought assessment tools, reviewed them, I think, as a trainer assessor, the best way you're going to learn is by completing the assessment yourself and then do validation after that, where you can find out where those gaps are. And I know as a trainer and assessor myself, I learnt a lot by just using the assessment tools when I was delivering training and, like one of my favourite sayings is teach to learn, I learnt so much when I was teaching.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 7:08

Yeah, yeah, the other part of that as well is just that you know now what we're seeing. Well, certainly, what I'm seeing a lot of is that RTOs are then looking to take these tools and put them into student management systems, and so you know that process of putting them into the student management system and thinking about what you want the students to be presented with, how they're going to engage in things. I was doing a validation of some training materials from another provider last week and you know, they kind of just copy and pasted them into the system and I was like guys, they said, with these observations, like with the practical tasks, I said like, is a trainer in the classroom observing them? Is the student supposed to upload them? Do them in their own time? And they were like well, what do you mean? I'm like well, there's like no instruction.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 8:02

Like there's no instruction in there as to, like, how this practical assessment is actually going to take place, whether you're going to record it, whether or not it's supposed to be done in the workplace, whether or not it's going to be done in simulation. Like it's just, it just says you need to do this, but it doesn't say how you need to do it. And they were like oh, and I was like, okay, so like part of this, you know, so part of the upload process, you know, includes that as well. And I know that there are other tools out there that you can buy, where they've kind of tried to give both options of like well, here's how you're going to deliver it if you're delivering in a simulation, and here's all of the simulated business that comes with it, and here's how you would deliver it in the workplace. And it's all built into the one tool. So the one tool is huge. It, you know, like it's like a hundred pages because, but it can be adjusted to the different it's got.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 8:50

Yeah, well, I mean the rto is meant to like review it and then pull out one of those paths. Right, they've chucked it all in together and then I'm looking at, I'm going you've got a three percent completion rate on your assessment tools, based on what your student management system's telling me. That's because you've just chucked everything up there, like there's clearly been no review of this tool whatsoever prior to you know, prior to implementing it.

Angela Connell-Richards: 9:16

So I think a lot of the big part is the usability.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 9:19

The usability of it, yeah it'd be compliant and completely unusable. True, you know, I mean like you can develop a compliant tool that's just not usable because of the model of training that you deliver or because you know it's so big that students aren't going to be able to follow it themselves, and things like that. So I do like the way that the standards are. I know that Colleen on LinkedIn she raised an issue about 1.4 and she was bringing out the fact that in the wording for valid so validity under, you know, rules of evidence now says assessment evidence is adequate and I totally agree with her that that particular word, adequate, is problematic Like what's adequate.

Angela Connell-Richards: 10:04

It opens up to auditor's individual opinion on what is adequate.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 10:10

Yeah, so I mean, I think that's one of the you know, that's one of those words where I was like, oh okay, I mean validity before was very clear. You covered everything in the unit of competency, like every part of that unit, and I mean keeping in mind that we're following on from all of these new standards that are coming out. We've got a new training package framework, you know, and the new training package framework is going to bring in potentially a whole new structure of the unit where conformance evidence and elements are being kicked out the door.

Angela Connell-Richards: 10:44

You know, some of that sort of language is going to become quite interesting, yeah yeah, and have you reviewed all of the additional documents that came out with the standards? So the credential policy, standards policy, and then we've also got the compliance requirements. What are your thoughts on?

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 11:06

the guidance. Yes, we did one in the People Act. Yeah, what are?

Angela Connell-Richards: 11:07

your thoughts on the guidance? Yeah, what are your thoughts on those guidance documents?

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 11:12

So, look, we all knew the credential policy was going to remain the credential policy, so that's. I think that that's been. I mean, it's pretty much been in place since like March of last year. Look, I completely. I actually see both sides of this argument. I understand the people turning around and saying you're watering down the requirements, you're allowing people back in who've only got their tae10 um, and so I can understand you know the the concerns. I also see the other side of it going. We've got a massive shortage of trainers in certain industries.

Angela Connell-Richards: 11:46

Yeah, and my thoughts on that one is trainers and assessors. You don't need, I don't think you should have to do the qualification again, but I think it is very important that you are doing your vet PD and your industry PD.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 12:04

That's right. Trainers don't need to have ASS 502. They don't. The vast majority of trainers out there train and assess. They do not design training materials, and I understood it at the time. The thought processes was look, if they know how to write an assessment tool, they're going to know how to, you know, deliver that assessment tool more completely. There's going to be less, you know, pushback between trainers and developers, but the reality, unfortunately, was that the vast majority of that training was ticked and flicked. It was one of the saddest like things you know, and I ran several projects working in tandem with Mr Wed where, you know, we contextualised all the training for construction trainers, or we contextualised all the training for construction trainers, or we contextualised all the training for hospitality trainers. We took them through the process of that cheese and crackers. Like you know, I had staff, I had my lead developer sitting with trainers for hours and hours on end to get them through this unit.

Angela Connell-Richards: 13:03

It's not their forte. It's not like that's not their skill set. Their skill set is their industry.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 13:10

Yeah, and the reality is is that for many of those industries, it's, it's. They are not paperwork based people, they are focused on scans on. So we're pushing people more and more and I mean, look, don't get me wrong, you're standing paper like, you're going to be a trainer and assessor, you're going to have to do paperwork, you're going to have to understand legislation and compliance and things like that. But trying to push them into a developer box was an absolute nightmare and I think that we do need to open it up because we do have a shortage in our industry and we need to be, you know, we need to allow for additional options, because otherwise we're just there's just not enough. There's not enough trainers to build the skills that our country actually needs. We don't have enough construction trainers to get construction people out there so that we can build homes, which is, you know, clearly a need for the country. So I think that you know this is something that had to be done.

Angela Connell-Richards: 14:12

There was just too many barriers to entering the market as a trainer assessor.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 14:17

Yeah, exactly.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 14:18

And again, as long as you're doing your regular professional development, then I think that's fine.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 14:24

Think the industry requirement again, there's people saying that it's been, you know, watered down and to some extent I can understand where they're coming from. But I also look at it and go, okay, but if you were a trainee, for you know, if you were a trainee for 20 years and then you moved into doing um training and you are still working on the tools with the kids on a daily basis and you're going out into industry and you know you have a range of strategies in place, and I mean, in an ideal world, I think RTOs should be doing like regular kind of competency checks. You know, I've got an RTOto that has, I think we've got about 30 auspice arrangements with teachers and schools. We bring those teachers out every single year, we get them back on the tools and we actually have industry and our lead trainer do a currency, like almost do a voc on them to go right. Do you understand? Like are, are you still able to to perform a weld? You know that doesn't look like shit.

Angela Connell-Richards: 15:30

Um, yeah, so and that's very much what's in the new vet workforce requirements under um quality area three. So it is very much how. How are the trainers and assessors getting out of the classroom and really looking at applying those skills and how are they keeping current with that? Because the big thing is is that we need to bring them in to be able to teach these skills and if they're not up to date, that's not going to help.

Angela Connell-Richards: 16:01

I love the idea of the well, it's not an idea now. I love the experts of the well, what's not an idea now? I love the experts, industry experts and bringing experts in that whereby they don't have to hold the cert for and training assessment, but they're industry experts where they can discuss their current skills and knowledge within the industry. Um, yeah, I think that was a really good component to be brought in. So let's break down like so we've now got our three areas. We've already talked about outcome standards and the credential policy, and then we've got the compliance requirements, which I see is just our general compliance. So I don't think a lot has changed.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 16:48

What did you think of Clause?

Angela Connell-Richards: 16:49

6, Previous Conduct and Involvement. And that's around fit and proper person requirements.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 16:53

Yeah, yeah.

Angela Connell-Richards: 16:56

And I think that's actually good, because we've actually had a lot of dodgy operators that were out there and I've seen it where they've come to us, where they've failed initial registration or re-registration and I've looked at their audit report and I'm like OMG, like we don't want to work with you, but they really needed to be strict on those fit and proper persons because it was bringing the industry down. Those dodgy operators and there are so many fantastic operators that are out there. So what are your thoughts on it?

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 17:55

I agree with you. I think that we know that during our little VAT student loans era, I think we also know that there are plenty of RTOs that are very much related in reality and yet for some reason, on paper they've all got a different CEO and everything like that. I think that the best strategy for any RTO is to be very, very upfront about who you're connected with and to be very careful as to who you're connected with. I think that you know this is going to be one of those areas where I'm going to. I'm just going to say with great power comes great responsibility. You know the sorry 6.2 and 6.3 and then 7, you know the vet regulator may have regard to whether a person is previously engaged in conduct that reasonably suggested a deliberate pattern of unethical behavior. The national vet regulator may have regard to any other matter relating to a previous person's conduct or involvement that the regulator considers relevant. The national vet regulator may have regard to whether the public is unlikely to have confidence in the person's suitability to be involved in an organization. So it is. I think it's important for RTOs to understand. It's a very, very broad. I know that, like you and I have cultivated our connections and our networks and the people and the businesses that we work with very, very carefully over the years.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 19:20

Um, specifically for this reason, my strong recommendation to any rto owner is to have you have to cultivate your. You have to cultivate your reputation in exactly the same way. Um and I think the only area where I'm there, this is potential I mean, this is quite. It is quite open in its language. It's one of the few areas of the compliance requirements that's not black and white. All of the other components of the compliance requirements are black and white. So I think that this is something that we are seeing in ART play out a lot at the moment, and I think that it's going to be something where there's probably going to be a little bit of a you know pendulum swing each way before we kind of come to a big well, actually, no knowing that it's just going to swing from one side to the other.

Angela Connell-Richards: 20:15

Yes, we had a case recently where someone came to us who had submitted an initial registration and they were not backed on so many things. But fit and proper person was one of the major areas and I've already seen quite a bit of with ASQA. They're really coming down on a fit and proper person. Yeah, it's very much a focus. And this person came to us through a referral and I looked at the audit report and I went, omg. I was like what had come up was she had lied on her fit and proper person. There was lots of dodgy stuff that was happening within the audit report and she was blaming the consultant that she had been working with. So we so, because this referral came through one of our partners, we thought, well, we'll give it a go and we'll go through further, and we gave her an opportunity. Because this referral came through one of our partners, we thought, well, we'll give it a go and we'll go through further, and we gave her an opportunity. One of the big things was not only had she lied in her fit and proper person and didn't state that she had worked for other RTOs before, she didn't put that in there, really, yeah, and apparently the consultant she worked with said that she shouldn't do that, she shouldn't put that in there, and I'm like it all comes back to you and it will come back and bite you. So you know, ask Cook, it's not that hard for them to tie you together into any other audit report, particularly with ai. Now they could just run the audit reports through and just go have this person ever been in an rto before? Um, and then the.

Angela Connell-Richards: 22:07

Then there was cases where the trainers and assessors had falsified documents. Um and uh, yeah. So we, we took it on face value and went okay, yep, maybe you had a consultant who hadn't advised you correctly. Then we said okay, this is an action plan, this is what you need to do. You need to find some new trainers to start with. We're not even going to take you on board unless you get some trainers who hold the qualifications. Who hold the qualifications? Well, we got that back this week. And the trainers we once again found falsified information in the trainer and assessor files and it's like, really, guys, we're not going to work with people like that. You have to be open and honest and when it comes to fit and proper person, always be open and honest.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 22:58

They're going to find out like it's not that hard statement is like literally like 30 pages long. Now I've got like a 10 page supporting statement. That goes on to it and I'm like here is a list of every rto that I have worked with.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 23:15

Pretty much like half of them you are either an intent to cancel or a rejection or like, because that's how a lot of people come to us, like they're preparing you know, or like you know, we've got a lot of RTOs like that. We've got a lot of RTOs where they contact us two years before registration and they're like, okay, we need to, like, get our house in order and stuff like that. But you know, like I've just finished doing most of the annual declarations, most of my RTOs. In our annual declarations, like I put forward to them, I'm like you know where it says you know, have you been compliant to every single standard throughout the whole year? I'm like, no, you haven't. And they're like you can't say that, like that's the truth. I'm like I did a validation for you three weeks ago. We identified there was a noncompliance. We fixed the noncompliance right and now we're checking the other units in that same qualification and they're like we need to ask for that. I'm like you need to be honest. I'm like I'm not like. When I every annual declaration I've pretty much ever done for RTOs, I've basically been like, no, you have not been compliant against training and assessment for the whole year, because that is how the validation process works. That's you know. Like it's. You know you can have compliant tools. You're still not going to have fully compliant assessments because your trainers are going to miss a question. They're going to mark a question satisfactory that's not satisfactory, like this is. The process that we're constantly going through with rtos is like you just can you just just be honest, like, just be honest and be like this is this is the situation.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 24:51

Um, the consultant thing, I think, is really problematic and I know that there are, like several consultants in our industry. They will do an RTO registration without any client involvement. They write the TAS, they design the program, they put all of the policies together and I have one across. Yes, exactly, and you know, like I my, I do very, very few RTO registrations, I think for the purpose that, like, whenever anyone calls me up and goes I want to start an RTO, my first response to them is like why, why would you want to do this?

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 25:27

That's terrible. But then, even when, like they tell me why and I'm like okay, I'm like, well, I'll give you the templates for this, this and this, but then you're going to sit with my staff and you're going to have to tell me how you're going to deliver the program and you're going to write up the tasks and you're going to write your trainer matrices and you know, you're going to sit with us for eight hours and review every single policy and tell us how you need it contextualized. And I think when they look at us and like, give them the whole workload, the vast majority of people are like, okay, that's cool. And I'm like, okay, go and get other quotes and see you know, and then they'll go to somebody else and they'll be like we'll take care of the whole process for you and you don't need to be involved.

Angela Connell-Richards: 26:07

But then you get to audit.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 26:09

Right, you get to it. And then, all of a sudden, the ask was asking you questions, because that's what it knows, that, like you know, this consultant and that consultant they know their shit right and um, so yeah, I had one.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 26:27

I had one that came across my desk a couple of weeks ago and they were like, oh, you know, we went with this consultant and I'm reading the report and I'm like, like it literally says in there and fit and proper. Again, that's what they were targeting. They were like they're not fit and proper because we asked you questions about your policies and you clearly had no freaking idea what you were doing. Like you had no understanding of the policy or the procedure you know, like you don't know how to run this out.

Angela Connell-Richards: 26:52

You know you couldn't answer questions about the standards, so yeah yeah, I did a podcast on this recently because this same client, um that came to us. They hired a consultant. She met with them twice in the whole initial registration process, received the policies and procedures the day before the audit it. And for me, like when we work with our initial registrations, we call them kickstarts. We do the same thing. We actually give them a roadmap of what the work is going to be involved and we tell them how much time per week, like every week, we're going to be meeting with you and we're going to go through these. We can't do everything for you because we're not going to be asked the questions. You are going to be asked the questions and then we have four PDs that we do per month that teaches you how to comply with all of this.

Angela Connell-Richards: 27:49

This person had never done any PD. We gave her some of our PD as complimentary because she absolutely knew nothing and she was like was like oh wow, I actually didn't know all of this. I didn't know any of this. So the thing is, you've really got to be careful when you're engaging with a consultant. An RTO in a box is no good if you know nothing about RTOs, if if you have experience and you've worked in RTOs and you've worked in compliance, then maybe buy an RTO in a box, but if you've never worked like normally our clients, our ideal client, is an industry expert in their industry We'll get you through registration. We're experts in compliance and we'll get you through, but you've got to do the work. Yeah, exactly yeah.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 28:39

And I mean that's exactly it. Like I mean, if you're not progressing every week, I mean even with our policy updates, our clients, they must hate me at the moment because you know, like every policy that comes out, we're like, okay, here's the policy, here's the changes that we've made, here's the relevant part of the standards. You need to review this. Then you need to send it back to us and then we're going to review. And if you want, to have a meeting.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 29:03

We're going to have a meeting about like we've been doing this now for months. Like are the quality registers that we've got with our clients at the moment because we keep it all on accelerate for each of them yeah, like the quality registers. In the last between jan and now, you know there's like probably 40 or 50 notes in the register of like this has been sent out, this has been approved, this has been done, this has been done. Yeah, yeah.

Angela Connell-Richards: 29:29

Yeah, and it's a massive process, like we've also been working on through all of our documents, and it is a massive process to rewrite and then not. Well, I've taken two ways of doing this. I've done one lot where I've rewritten and another lot where I've written from scratch so that I can see what the difference is between those two. So when these came out on Friday, I started straight away rewriting, writing new policies and procedures against that, and it is quite a process and I think a lot of people don't realise how much of a process it is. What are your thoughts on how RTOs existing RTOs are going to transition over to the new standards? Do you think they're going going to transition over to the new standards? Do you think they're going to stick their head in the sand?

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 30:23

I think you're going to have a variety. I think that I mean we have received a lot of calls from RTOs. We do a lot of work with Accelerate, so we've been receiving a lot of referrals from Accelerate on just being able to run some sessions with RTOs on, like, how to go and update using Accelerate's new, you know, using Accelerate's mapping right, Go in and map the policies and where do we keep them and how do we structure them, and everything like that. So we've been running lots of those. There are a lot of good RTOs out there that are doing the right thing.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 31:03

I have seen plenty of advertisements of, like buy our policy set and you'll be fully compliant. I know that there was, you know, a new product that was launched yesterday. That was, you know, I'm not even going to say it but like, it's AI that automates your entire compliance system and you don't need to do anything. Like, okay, I'm just going to say it. If you're watching this podcast, if you are told that you can completely automate compliance using AI and you don't need to do anything, please don't waste your money, Please don't.

Angela Connell-Richards: 31:34

Because, once again, you're the one that's going to be audited, not the AI bot.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 31:39

Yeah, and look, policies are like assessment tools, like where people will buy them and chuck them into their system and then they're like they can't answer anything on them. And when you get audited, you get audited on how you're applying your policies and procedures. That's right. And half the time you know like they don't even know what's the policy and procedures.

Angela Connell-Richards: 31:59

That's right, and half the time you know like they don't even know what the policy and procedures.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 32:01

The policy is from like 2018, you know? Do you know what I mean? Like it's.

Angela Connell-Richards: 32:06

Yeah.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 32:06

Yeah.

Angela Connell-Richards: 32:08

Yeah.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 32:08

It's a process for RTOs where you're actually reviewing what you do, and does that line up with the standard?

Angela Connell-Richards: 32:13

Yeah, yeah, and I definitely use AI to help me with writing the policies and procedures. But I've trained a bot for three years now on how to be compliant and I've got a clone bot of me and it's got all of my knowledge in there my webinars, my workshops, my documentation. It's got everything in there. So I'm going, when I'm creating stuff, it's me it's not any AI bot and anybody who's writing policies and procedures from the free chat.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 32:51

GPT. Omg, that's a lie, like it will just outright lie to your face and it can't, it can't cross-check, it can only cross-check so many documents and stuff like that. I mean, look, it's a brilliant tool, it is absolutely a brilliant tool and it's it's created huge time savings, um, for a lot of people. But you have to use it in the right way. It's like the internet, you know.

Angela Connell-Richards: 33:15

You have to use it in the right way yeah, use your intelligence, use your knowledge, use your skills. Um, like, I don't, definitely do not use the first thing that's spat out. Um, I'll refine, refine, refine. And it's like okay, you've missed this bit, you now need to add this bit in, you need to expand on this. Oh, this one, you've got too much information. We don't need that. Like I see, uh, chat gpt as my intern. That um knows a lot of information but doesn't know how I want to put it together, although my bot has learned a lot now. It's learned a lot about how my structure is. I've even taught it how I want to structure policies and procedures. I love that ChatGPT now has projects so I can just go to that project and work in there. Yeah, anyway, we could talk about AI all day, so let's move on. Okay, so do you believe that the new standards that we have so the whole suite, have addressed the quality concerns that we've had in the training industry?

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 34:45

I think that the tools give the regulator the opportunity to address some of the issues that have been big quality concerns in the industry. I don't think any legislative instrument is ever going to be able to be the be-all, end-all fix for quality in our industry. I don't think any legislative instrument is ever going to be able to be the be-all, end-all fix for quality in our industry. And I mean there's a couple of reasons for that, and one is just that with every industry there's always a cat and mouse element of like people trying to find ways around it, and GPT is a good example of that. Like there are a lot of people, there are colleges that are using gpt to mass produce responses for their students. Like that's an entire market that's opened up now and it has become a lot harder to be able to for people that are doing this professionally. Like they are professionally producing this fraudulent documentation for the students. They're getting good at it, right.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 35:45

So, there's always going to be a cat and mouse element, I think, for all of this sort of stuff. What I think that the tools do is I think in particular areas, it provides clarity for the auditors to be able to go and strike those particular areas Now fit and proper is one of the areas that they're definitely attacking. I think validation under these new standards both the with both reviewing the tools beforehand and the validation after the fact of the judgments I think that's going to be an area where there's going to be a lot, I think, um online rtos that don't provide any service to their students and just try to, like you know, really all they're out there to do is to get that student onto that payment plan.

Angela Connell-Richards: 36:28

Yeah, here's your login, and see you later.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 36:31

I think that you know the fact that they don't provide any wellbeing support, that they don't provide any support services for the students, that they don't monitor the progress of the students in any way, shape or form. I think it gives ASQA some tools to be able to address those particular points, and very, very clearly I do. I'll be honest, I do have some concerns with how ASQA is operating in the workforce sector at the moment. I have the biggest amount of respect for asper. I fully agree with them that price loss needed to be tackled because there are some really bad players in that area and it does hurt australia's national reputation. I think last year, in the last two years, 90 of the chefs that have been qualified in australia have been international and that's, you know, like that's not a good thing. That's not how we should be building chefs in Australia.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 37:27

Yeah, but I also, yeah, I do, and I mean I think part of it is just the fact that there's not there's only so many resources and, I'll be honest, federal pay rates for auditors are really not that great.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 37:43

I mean, people like you and I are not about to go and become an ASCA auditor because the pay just doesn't support it in any way, shape or form, and so what it does support is quite a lot of people coming into industry that are like you know, that just don't have that level of experience, um, and that can be really, really problematic. So I like I I understand the challenges that the regulator is presented with in like addressing the myriad of what they have to do, because you also kind of want to be an expert in every area. Like I'm very fortunate that over the years I'm very familiar with cpc, with rii, with, like I mean, I probably have a really good breadth of knowledge across maybe 20 training packages. That being said, I think there's like 100 training packages and our school kind of has to be across all of them.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 38:34

So you know, how you, how you build a team that can do that, is really really, really, really challenging and and maintain consistency yeah.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 38:45

So I think that's always going to be the challenge for the regulator in combating um, like in combating quality in our sector. I like the new annual declaration this year I know this is a bit of an offshoot, but the questions in the annual declaration. I like the fact that they've kind of incorporated the quality indicator report into the annual declaration. I like the fact that they've specifically asked how many RPLs you've done as your numbers, and they're going to be able to cross-check your commencements, your completions and your RPL with the event list data that you've submitted. So I think that some of those sorts of things are quite useful. And they're also asking explicitly how many third-party agreements you had, also asking explicitly like how many agent, like how many third party agreements you had, uh, and obviously you're going to put that number in and that number should be no the same as what's on your website, the same as what's on ask for net.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 39:44

So I think that some of those things are are good, and I know that asper is trying to utilize ai and utilize tools to kind of you know more accurately pinpoint where the risks are. They're also very, very much bedded down with some pretty major you know. Like you know, when you look at the ASPR reports that have come out and you look at the number of matters that they've got in front of them and you look at the number of matters they're facing in the ART, you know, I think that I can definitely see at the moment that they've got in front of them and you look at the number of matters that they're facing in the ART, you know, I think that I can definitely see at the moment that they're at kind of breaking point too, and that's always a really, really stressful time when the regulator is stressed.

Angela Connell-Richards: 40:26

For many of our providers that end up being stressed, it's going to be interesting to see how it all plays out over the next 12 months and and more. Yeah, yeah, okay, so for rto's listening today, what's the first thing you think they need to do, or they should do, to prepare for compliance under these new standards?

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 40:47

download them and read them. Like there's just so many to vote. Guys look okay, honestly like, if you don't feel you have the time to actually sit and read the legal instruments, download the legal instrument, chuck it into a paid version of chat gpt and ask it to give you the highlights.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 41:06

Or chuck it into a program that's going to turn it into a podcast and listen to it while you're cooking or cleaning, like yeah you know there's so many mechanisms, put it through, speak ai, it'll produce it'll, it'll read the whole thing out to you while you're cooking dinner or something like that. But just just just start to familiarize yourself with the standards. There's my podcast, there's your podcast. Um, you know, like they'll, I'm sure that dan hill from spec training will be putting stuff out um yeah, and phil, phil bevan's always got something to say and like just start listening to what are the changes in the standards so that you can familiarize yourself with them, and little things will start to come out.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 41:51

You'll go, oh well, we don't have a well-being. Like we've got no strategy for tackling well-being. Or like, oh well, we don't do any pre-validation, all of our validation is after the batch. Like, oh well, we don't document that you know yeah, it's super easy to document stuff. Guys like jump onto teams. Add a fireflies or read ai to it and just start talking with your team about all the compliance stuff that you're doing. Do it once and then take those notes and chuck them into your quality register. That's it you've got something.

Angela Connell-Richards: 42:22

You've got something there. Then the other really important thing that I I think we need to add in there is the practice guides from asqua. So make sure you're downloading the practice guides with all of the policies that have come out and reviewing that and identifying where are the gaps, and I think that's perfect. Listening to podcasts I've got a whole heap of FAQ videos that I've released on our EduStream channel on YouTube and it's just got little snippets. They're only less than a minute and it just gives you an idea. Oh, are we doing that or do we need to do that, like it just prompted? So it should be just part of your ongoing just reviewing and things like that, and there's so much out there that you can access. What common mistakes do you predict RTOs will make in adapting to these changes? Thinking about previous legislation, when it's come in and what people have done?

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 43:20

So I think the thing that I've learned throughout the years is to go through the standards, pick out those words that haven't got a definition and define them right. Right, define them really clearly. Um, yeah, so so that you know what it looks like and so that you know what, how you're going to stick to it. Um and again, like there are so many tools out there, the main thing that rtos do all the time is they're doing the compliance. They're doing the tasks that meet the compliance. They're not documenting it.

Angela Connell-Richards: 43:58

They're not recording it. Yeah.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 44:01

Except for the fact that nowadays we've got Read AI, we've got Fireflies, we've got transcripts we've got codes from everything.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 44:08

Like we've got so many different things that we can do. Yeah, we've got phones. Look at how you document stuff. Like, really do look at how you document stuff and figure out a way to make that easier. And like, if you've got, if you've got microsoft zero accelerate and you're using some of these ai tools, like I really don't see how the system is set up so easily. You know, the biggest change that we've made with all of our clients over the last year is we are able to document the compliance that's happening on a daily and weekly basis with our clients so much more easily than we were and than we ever have been able to in the past. And thankfully, because we're doing it, all online now.

Angela Connell-Richards: 44:55

Yeah, because we're doing it all online. It was a bit different when we were doing it face-to-face, but we're doing it all online and we're able to get all of this data from and you can also use this data with your industry consultation. Definitely, with getting that feedback and things like that. I think one of the common mistakes that we will see is people trying to write their policies and procedures using AI bots and not having it. I think that's going to be a problem and not contextualising it for their RTO and when they go to audit, that's going to be an issue. Same with you know writing your training and assessment strategies as well.

Angela Connell-Richards: 45:34

Like you, you really you can't just put something through your ai and expect it's going to come out compliant um it like we've got. I've got over 30 years of experience in the training sector and it's it's a lot over those years and and I love ChatGPT it's my favourite assistant ever but I would never, ever take the first thing that comes out, even though I've trained it. So I think that's going to be a common mistake that we're going to see. I think also, we're going to have people who are just going to go. I'll just wait till I have an audit. And I've seen this so many times, where they go to audit and they ring us and go help. We're going to audit and we don't know what we're doing.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 46:22

Late at that point, buddy, like you're screwed at that point, yeah don't wait until you get called up for an audit.

Angela Connell-Richards: 46:28

You should be starting now. You should be as you said just download the documents, review it, put it through ai, get it to write a podcast for you. I love that, I think they're great ideas. And talk to talk to your chat gpt on your phone and get it to just ask it questions and then get it to answer. So you, so that you're learning as much as you can. But but I think, yeah, those mistakes Don't wait. Don't wait until you go to audit or getting called up for audit or re-registration, because ASQA can audit you at any given time. You could be on a focus area that they want to. Just because you got through audit last year doesn't mean you're not going to have another audit this year. So you need to be on top of it. The other big thing, I think because it's a big component is training all of your team on the new requirements, making sure that everyone on the team understands the compliance requirements and I mean records, I mean records is going to be the biggest part of that.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 47:30

We're, we're now it's no longer six months, so we're going from six months to two years. We have to keep everything for longer, um, and so you know, I know that there are a lot of rtos out there, probably not listening to this podcast, but, um, you know that will turn around and go oh, we only need to keep things for six months. So therefore, like you know, every year it's like a, you know, hurrah, hurrah, let's. You know we're out of everything, let's burn it? Yeah, pretty much. But yeah, you've got to keep everything for a minimum of two years now and if you've got state funding contracts, up to seven years.

Angela Connell-Richards: 48:10

Yeah, depending on your contract.

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 48:15

Read your contracts right. So, yeah, that's um. You know this is a good opportunity when we update the standards to do things like okay, well, what funding contracts do you have? When was the last time you went? You went updated, you know, in line with the wa business rules or in line with the you know the pqs requirements for queensland or in line with the Smart and Skilled Operating Guidelines for New South Wales. So take this opportunity to go through and really review. There's new IRHR legislation that's come out in the last couple of years. There's been some major WHS updates across a lot of RTOs. Most RTOs haven't updated their policies and procedures in a while. There's not many aspects of the legislation that haven't changed cybersecurity, how you deal with data breaches, how you deal with a notifiable data breach incident, all of those sorts of things. Yeah, like all of that needs to be in your policies now. So you know.

Angela Connell-Richards: 49:07

And the VET workforce. Like they're the major things I've seen is the VET workforce requirements more around wellbeing, which I think is good, and also around the trainer and assessor requirements and maintaining bringing in those experts, I think, is also what's really good about it as well. Yeah, okay, so we need to wrap this up. It was a very insightful breakdown of what we've seen so far and I love hearing what your thoughts are on this. So, before we wrap up, lauren, what's your number one piece of advice for RTOs looking at these new standards and are feeling overwhelmed?

Lauren Boon-Hollows: 49:50

Just don't stress out too much. Download a couple of podcasts and every time you go to cook meal or go for a drive, play one. Build your knowledge slowly over time, over the next couple of months, and you'll get there yeah, yeah, great.

Angela Connell-Richards: 50:05

That's great feedback. I think that's wonderful. All right, that's a wrap for today. In our episode where, um, in this episode, we've covered a lot when it comes to the new standards. In our next episode, we're going deeper how the standards affect trainers and assessors and the practical steps for RTOs to implement changes. So don't miss it. Hit subscribe and stay ahead of compliance changes. See you, you next time. Thank you very much, lauren.