Speaker 1: 0:22

Welcome back to the RTO Superhero Podcast. In our last episode, we covered the big picture changes in the new standards. Today we're going deeper how the standards are going to impact trainers, assessors and the day-to-day operations of RTOs. Lauren is back with me to unpack trainers and RTO leaders and what they need to do right now to ensure compliance. Lauren, great to have you on again. I'm fresh, happy. It's always awesome. Okay, so let's dive in. We're really going to be looking at the trainer and assessor credentialing and what's new. So, from what you've seen and reviewed, what are one of the biggest areas of concern for RTOs when ensuring their trainers and assessors meet the compliance requirements? What's changed in the credential policy that you've seen?

Speaker 2: 1:19

Look, I mean I feel like there's been a huge amount of conversation in and around this particular topic and in and around the credential policy for quite a long time now. I mean, certainly this came out. We had versions of it released in. Actually, in March of 2024 was when the first you know kind of version major announcement sort of came into play, and then we've had the other version. That's been a few days ago, I think one of the areas that I do find interesting is how they're starting to review training.

Speaker 2: 2:03

So certainly I know that, like I work with a lot of organizations whereby we get industry people to come in and deliver training and things like that, um, so we've got training and assessment credentials and then we've got assessment only credentials. Um, I know that there was questions about training um that had been raised, you know, know, through the consultation process. I don't really know whether or not that's been addressed sufficiently within the credential policy and within the standards as well. I think the idea of the training and assessment under direction is a good concept and the reason why I say that is that I've got a lot of RTOs that, due to the trainer shortage, have had to bring in industry-qualified people, partner them up with a trainer, and we've basically, like you know, I think, over the last probably three years I probably had worked with RTOs to, to you know, put them out to people and we probably put 20 or 30 trainers through the tae in order so that we could, you know, have trainers available in our industry because there wasn't a pool of suitably qualified people.

Speaker 2: 3:18

Um, so, you know, I think the idea that, like you, you've got you know the volunteer trainer delivery skill set, or you know somebody who already holds the facilitation skill set coming in to learn that assessment side of things. I think it was necessary. We don't have the people in our industry.

Speaker 1: 3:42

We've just had too much of a shortage.

Speaker 2: 3:44

A hundred percent. Yeah, I think the only area that it really doesn't provide for is is, like um and I know that I've got this question a few times. It's like, okay, well, if I've got somebody coming in, like from industry who's going to deliver training for a couple of days, uh, they're not going to be overseeing the assessment, they're just going to be delivering. Do they need to have the facilitation skill set? Do they need to have the delivery volunteer trainer delivery skill set? You know, um, and I don't know whether or not that's been clearly enough covered under the standards and I don't know how the regulator is going to intend to like approach that to our component.

Speaker 2: 4:21

I know it's something that we've struggled with with um funded training before, where, like we, we're getting industry, we're getting like, the best people in industry to come in and deliver the training and you know, a funding department has gone, yeah, but they don't have their TAE, so we don't, we're not going to pay you for that particular component, right, yeah, yeah, great. Like you know, you've got industry best practice happening and because, because of you know the fact that there's not a tae there, we're not going to recognize it like, wow, that that sucks, you know yeah, yeah, yeah and um, we've touched on this before.

Speaker 1: 4:58

What are your thoughts on the uh removing the requirement to upgrade your tae?

Speaker 2: 5:03

yeah, yeah, again like I mean.

Speaker 2: 5:07

I understand people's reservations and their concerns and the thoughts that we're quote unquote watering down industry. We are in a trainer shortage. We don't have enough trainers, particularly in areas like nursing, in areas like aged care, in all of the traits. We don't have enough electrician trainers to put electricians out there. We don't have enough builder trainers out there. To you know, bring builders into our industry to actually address the housing crisis that we've got in australia. Yeah, so yeah, it can't be like we have. It's always going to be a bit of a give and take situation. This is something that had to be done. If they only have the TAE-10, but they're undertaking some regular vet PD and they've got good assessment tools and we're reviewing their training strategies to make sure that they're engaging and we're validating the competency decisions that they come to at the end, then you should have a system in place that can mitigate any potential risks that you know that that that introduces.

Speaker 1: 6:16

Yeah, yeah, I recently delivered a web workshop on the vet workforce and what are the requirements and, in particular, looking at trainers and assessors and how they can maintain their currency, and there are so many ways that we they that they can do that, but I think, I think, um, for current trainers, it's going to mean, okay, you fine, you don't have to upgrade your qualification, but make sure you're doing your VET PD and you're keeping current with the changes, in particular, with all the legislative changes that we've got right now. We've also discussed how the qualifications are going to change as well. You just need to stay ahead of those being involved in assessment validation meetings and part of that component that's great PD to really understand the assessment tools as well. So, when it comes to the current trainers, I see it as a really good opportunity to, instead of having to upgrade to another qualification, focus on just ensuring your skills are current within the vet sector, and your industry sector allows more time to do that, I think. For new trainers, though, I think it's a great opportunity for bringing in new trainers and having them under mentoring with other trainers, not having to hold the qualification but working towards.

Speaker 1: 7:44

I think that that is a great change and we did see that change come in earlier last year due to the shortage skill shortages that we have. So, when we look at the credentialing changes, what are your? Like I? There hasn't been a lot of change that I've seen, because they did implement it last year. I don't think there is a major change other than that. The main part for me is you can maintain your 2010 or just whatever qualification you're on. Then maintain that VET PD. How do you think it's going to impact trainers when it comes to their professional development? Do you think they'll take it on board?

Speaker 2: 8:48

most rtos uh, most good rtos know that there's some pretty major changes coming, uh, in 2025 and 2026, and so they are. You know there is a plan in place to kind of go okay, well, we're going to need to like talk about how we're going to be covering all this um. So I I think that for the vast majority of trainers out there, it'll mostly be business as usual. I think it probably makes it a little bit easier for, for example, our secondary school teachers that are delivering vet in schools. I know that that's always been an area of concern for regulators. It's always been an area of concern for regulators. It's always been an area of concern for schools.

Speaker 2: 9:35

Various states have brought in different measures and mechanisms. Like I know, wa will pay for trainers to go out and undertake industry currency, like industry workplace experience, depending on the industry that works to varying you know, varying degrees of success. Obviously, there are certain industries where you know you really just can't allow somebody on the floor for something unless they work in the organisation. So I think, broadly, it does just actually give a little bit of relief to the sector on how we go about doing this. Again, it's just going to boil down to if you've always been doing it, that's great. You've just got to make sure that you're documenting it. You know, yeah, yeah, and that's often the area where they're doing it.

Speaker 1: 10:27

I found it very interesting with the quality area vet workforce. It seems to be the onus now is on the RTO to ensure. I found it very interesting with the quality area vet workforce. It seems to be the onus now is on the RTO to ensure that their main ensuring that their trainers are having PD. What do you think based on your experience? What do you think RTOs?

Speaker 2: 10:48

will struggle most with when it comes to adapting to these changes Contract trainers. So there's definitely a lot of RTOs that, with their contract trainers, really do push back in this area and kind of go we're not going to pay for any PD, we're not going to provide you any PD, and that's. You know that's always been a real area of like debate between trainers and RTOs. You know that's always been a real area of like debate between trainers and RTOs. Who's responsible for like? For example, like I've had trainers that have had, you know, one trainer matrix. That trainer matrix is fully compliant. They've taken it to another RTO as a contract trainer and the RTO has gone. Well, no, you need to do it in our format and the trainer's gone. But no, you need to do it in our format and the trainer's gone. But I've given you evidence of my competency in currency and they've gone. No, you need to do it and the trainer's gone. Okay, fine, well, if you're going to pay me to do it, then that's fine. And they've gone. No, no, you've got to do it on your own time, right?

Speaker 2: 11:45

So I think that that sort of stuff you know, um, the the onus is on the rto to make sure you've got evidence of it. So I really don't think that you can be asking a trainer and assessor to put together their own trainer matrix in their own time. Um, you know, I don't. I don't think that's gonna fly and certainly under the new standards. I think that you you do have it.

Speaker 2: 12:11

I mean, look, I believe that RTOs always have an onus and certainly there's heaps of free PD out there. So, like, even if it's hey, we're going to pay you sit and watch this podcast, answer these questions after the podcast. Like, I know we provide a service where we basically go look, if you watch one of our podcasts and you want to document it as PD, we'll send you out a you know a form link. You can fill in that form, you can send it back to us and then we'll provide you with a little certificate. Um, so we do that for like a lot of people, like a lot of trainers and assessors in particular, to help them document their professional development. Um, but rto should be like you should be training your trainers on. You know, if you're a registered training organization, that cannot be bothered training your own staff. It's a red flag like it just is. You know, it's like all of these rtos that have never bothered training their bloody admin, you know, and it's like all of these RTOs that have never bothered training their bloody admin.

Speaker 2: 13:14

you know, and it's like so your admin is like your first line of compliance defence, Like they are your best.

Speaker 1: 13:19

It's now in the standards. It's now in the standards that all staff need to undergo vet PD. So I think you know, even if you've got contract trainers, bring them in with all your other staff and do the training together and have that PD there where they get involved. One of the things that I used to do when I had my RTO is I'd do two PD days a year. Half the day would be assessment, validation and the other half would be training for the trainers and it was a great day. I didn't pay them because they were all contract trainers, but I provided lunch and I gave them a certificate of attendance, so they got that pd and we had it for their rtos right, yeah yeah yeah, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1: 14:08

So I think, when it comes to the vet, pd, I think and you've got contract trainers, just bring them in with all of the other uh staff that you have. Um, and it's so easy now you can even do some videos and just provide them with videos. We've got our edustream youtube channel. I know you've got a youtube channel as well where you they could go on there and and be watching some of those videos as well while they're cooking dinner.

Speaker 2: 14:34

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah exactly so documenting it and I think that, again, this is where trainers struggle is is they might be engaging in some of these practices, but not documenting it right and so you know, like, you've got systems like accelerate, where literally you can just go and pop a note in and you can pop a piece of evidence in and link it to specific units.

Speaker 2: 14:59

Um, you've got structures like you know, if you, if you really want to jump onto uh, jump onto teams with yourself, with your ai, once a month, document all the things that you've done that month, the AI will produce it as meeting minutes and, you know, keep that in your system, put it on your PD register. There's lots of different ways of doing it and it's just really, you know, if you are engaging with things, it should be. It's so easy to document now and that's again that's the part is that trainers don't think about. It's like, if I'm, if you're going to jump onto a meeting with one, with a couple of industry guys, right, document, like, have ai document that meeting and just chuck the meeting notes up there and also get, also get the ai to do a summary of what are some of the key things that you need to change in your training to improve the training and assessment.

Speaker 1: 16:00

Because it's so easy now with with all these bots we can do that and we just have a conversation with someone and then the ai bot can do it, break it down for you. So, yeah, so what? Um? So, when it comes to ASQA and um, trainers and assessors, what do you think they'll be targeting when it comes to trainer assessor files and PD?

Speaker 2: 16:23

I mean, look, trainer matrix is always document number one, right? Um, you know, and I think the area that I see that trainers fail with their trainer matrices time and time again is contextualising industry currency to the units that they deliver, right? So the copy and paste, like I don't know why, but it's just like you get the same statement over and over and over and over and over again um, we have a process whereby we now sit with trainers and we'll ask them questions, we'll do a half hour interview. It's reported by ai. We then chuck that into um, we chuck the full transcript into chat, gpt, we document all that information and then we pull out statements against each unit of competency and then we'll jump back online with the trainer and we'll review it. Now, we've had to come up with that process because, unfortunately, trainers seem to sit in front of this. It's it's there's like a mental block, I think, for a lot of trainers when they see this document and it's like I don't know, it's like an exam.

Speaker 2: 17:32

I can't Get back at school doing an exam A hundred percent and they just, like it's writer's block, hits like there's no tomorrow, whereas when we take them through this process and I mean you could do that process internally, in-house, you know, with anyone is that then they're refining something. So they've got a starting place to refine and go oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I did do that and actually I created this dish. Or oh yeah, yeah, I did that project and we ran into this problem, but then we solved it by doing this, and so I find that trainers work a lot better refining statements than they do creating them from scratch. Um, so you know, if you're a trainer and you've got to develop your trainer matrix really struggling, my suggestion is jump onto a call with someone, pull up the name of each unit of competency right that you've got to put it to your trainer matrix.

Speaker 2: 18:28

have ai in the chat with you and, for each unit, just talk about oh yeah, yeah, I worked in this restaurant or I worked in this business like just talk to your industry experience on that particular topic at a very high level, right and you don't need to go into each performance criteria you.

Speaker 2: 18:49

You're just doing it overall over the unit but it gives you that starting point to start to address how you are like, and it does allow you to think about your industry currency and when you get to certain points you are going to, as a trainer, go god, I haven't really done anything on that in, you know, five years, ten years, and when you come to that point, that's when you go, okay, cool, so that then forms my PD plan for next year. That's what this is. Over the next 12 months I'm going to need to cover these three topics, because these are the ones where I'm like well, actually, I really haven't really touched on that for quite a long time.

Speaker 1: 19:31

Yeah, yeah, and I think so. What I was going through with the VET workforce training was do an audit, and that sounds very similar. It's doing an audit of your skills and knowledge against the units that you are delivering, to identify where those gaps are and then just fill those gaps. It's not just, okay, we need to do VET PD, I'll just go off and do something. It's really identifying where is the gaps that I have currently and what do I need to do to fill those gaps, so that then I'm current in that, in that area.

Speaker 2: 20:02

yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's we have a new training package framework coming out in 20. It's been released, um, and I'm sure that we'll talk about that in a lot more detail as training packages start to roll out um. But you know, many of the training packages are going to be getting rid of performance criteria and elements and they're going to be moving just to knowledge and skills. Performance evidence, required evidence, um. That's going to be a big change. It's going to there. There is, I know, a lot of the training packages are really genuinely engaging in this process this year of like okay, let's see where we can massively overhaul um, get involved, like you know. Jump onto your training package provider. You know whether it's build skills, whether it's saxo, whether it's, you know, future skills, you know.

Speaker 1: 20:54

Or even just go down to traininggovau that you can find all of that out on traininggovau. So who is your if you don't know? So I'm just filling the gaps here if you don't know where to find that. And on traininggovau, on the home page, it shows you all of the packages that are under review right now, so you can go there see what's under review. You also can see who is the jsc, so you can go to them and learn more, and that should also be part of your pd yeah and I mean, look, if that's a great opportunity to um, you know, try and enact some of those changes.

Speaker 2: 21:31

I know that that a lot of the JSCs and, for those that don't know it, that's the Jobs and Skills Council, also previously referred to as the Skills Service Organisation or Industry Skills Councils, industry Skills Council.

Speaker 1: 21:45

We've been through a lot of that, depending how long you've been in the training industry.

Speaker 2: 21:49

So, but you know, know that, look, they are keen. Um, many of us would remember the disaster of the rii 2015 release. Um, it had such a huge impact on our industry. Um, you know, because of the way the training package was written, um, you know a lot of it could have been avoided by making sure that. You know we had. You know there was more consultation, there was more consideration that was taken into that. So, you know, jump on, get involved, provide your feedback. You know talk about what and trainers so rarely get involved in this process, like when you go and you look at a lot of these projects, you know we're getting getting feedback. There's feedback happening from industry. There's feedback happening from, you know, compliance staff, um and ceos and rto owners.

Speaker 2: 22:44

But, as a trainer, you understand the issues that occur within your training package. You understand that. You know. When you mention in telecommunications that it's an RJ45 as opposed to, you know what it's more commonly referred to in industry or vice versa, you know. You understand that when they've put a particular criteria in the cybersecurity package that is now completely and utterly redundant, you know. You understand when they put into the hospitality training package that you've got to cook, you know, one of the things I hate is the game. I hate game being put into the units, right? Like I hate the fact that you've got to cook goat as part of your general meat unit when there's not a lot of restaurants that you know utilise goat and game products. You know, in a lot of their restaurants, right, so you understand the challenges that that presents to you. You understand the cost that's involved for your students.

Speaker 2: 23:44

Every time you have to turn around to your students and go. I know, guys, I'm sorry, but it's in the training package. That's the feedback that you should be sending through. It's what they need To the FSO. Like two future skills organisations, two Bill Skills, two SACs like that's the feedback that they want to receive. It's like I am constantly having to apologise for this training package in this aspect, right, yeah, we don't do it anymore. You know the students don't like. Like, students hate it. It's not relevant, you know, and I, and the only reason why I have to cover it is because it's in the training package. You know, um, get involved. That's the feedback that you need to be pushing forward, because that's what. That's what they need to know in order to make things better. And you know, if you're not part of the solution, then you don't get to pitch about the problem. That's right.

Speaker 1: 24:40

Okay, all right, let's have a look at some practical steps for implementation. If an RTO hasn't started preparing yet, what's the first thing they should do following listening to this podcast?

Speaker 2: 24:59

So pull out and figure out what your actual if you have a policy number one, um, where that policy is and where it lies and who's aware of it, um, and then, um, produce a list of your actual trainers and assessors and work out who you've got what for. The biggest challenge that I see when I go into audit and organisation is the RTOs getting hold of the documentation. Yeah, that is the biggest problem that I have is I'm like I'm going to audit this train room. I'm just going to have to call them and find out where all of their stuff is. I'm like, okay, cool, but that is the most common problem that I have.

Speaker 1: 25:40

I think the first thing they should do is an audit of all of their trainers' matrices and put together some PD plans. If you've never done a PD plan before now, you need to do it. Plans. If you've never done a pd plan before now, you need to do it. Um and look at pd that you can do for everyone on your team. So bring those trainers in um for the vet pd side, but with the trainers, like what we've already said, identify what those gaps are. The first way, the first thing you need to do, is audit. Do an audit, identify where are those gaps and um and I think you know getting your trainers on a one-on-one conversation and getting them speaking through each unit of competency is a great way to do it as well, because you're really going to then identify where the gaps are. So are there any quick wins or immediate actions rtos can take to ensure they're moving in the right direction?

Speaker 2: 26:36

Yeah, look, I mean, as I said, like sometimes, you know, first collate your documentation. Do I have a training matrix for everyone? If I do, and half of them are like three, four, five years old, okay, your first step is all right. Let's just book a half-hour session for the trainer to sit with a compliance person and let's just do a review and an update. We'll record everything that we do in that session and then we can maybe flesh some stuff out from there. Right, that's step number one. That's a nice, easy win. We know there's going to be gaps. We know there's lots of free PD available online. So the other thing that we're going to do is we're just going to book, we're going to ask all of our trainers to go and watch you know, watch this podcast. Watch, you know, another podcast on the RTO standards, and then we're going to get everyone together on a Zoom call with the quality team and we're going to do a Q&A. Right, what do you guys want to know? What are your concerns? What are our next steps? It's all documented. Meeting minutes from that get uploaded automatically into the quality register and we've got something. We've got something, yes.

Speaker 2: 27:51

The other thing I think that you need to be doing is utilising. Like, look at the systems that you've actually got. I think there's so many RTOs that are paying for multiple systems and not using them. Like you know, you don't need to have a separate document management system, a separate quality management system, a separate finance management system, a separate student management system, a separate quality management system, a separate finance management system, a separate student management system and a separate, you know, learner management system.

Speaker 2: 28:20

Like I'm always being told and I do laugh like people are like, oh, you know, but accelerates a little bit expensive, and I'm like, okay, can we just sit down for a second? Like, let's just sit down for a second, okay. So let me get this straight you're paying this much for your shooter management system. You're paying this much for your moodle right on top of your moodle. You're you've got somebody two, two days a week in order to maintain that moodle right that you're paying for. You've got a separate document management system and then you've got a separate quality management system that supposedly maps all your policies and procedures that nobody can even tell me what the log is like. Nobody can even give me the freaking login details for it.

Speaker 2: 29:00

Yeah, I'm like okay so I'm tallying all of those things up and I'm like okay, so between all of those five systems and that staff member, you're paying forty $40,000 a year. Like I don't think Accelerate is more expensive than that doll.

Speaker 1: 29:16

Yeah, yeah, it's really reviewing what systems are you using and what is the capacity of the other systems.

Speaker 2: 29:24

And how much are you actually using that system?

Speaker 2: 29:27

You know like if you're paying for a system but not using it. Like I was looking at someone the other day and I went into their zero and through the course of this review, we realised they had two zeros. They had one zero for the staff to raise the invoices right for the students, and then they had a separate system where all of the business expenses were running out of right. And I'm sitting there and I'm going, I'm like, and I sit there and I'm like what the F are you like? Are you kidding me why? And they're going. And like the owner's like I don't know why, like I didn't.

Speaker 1: 30:10

I'm sorry. Someone told them to do that.

Speaker 2: 30:15

And I was, I didn and I was like we got on the phone with the bookkeeper and the bookkeeper was like oh well, yeah, like I use this one for this one, but then the accountant uses this one for this one. I'm like this is madness, people, this is madness. Stop, stop this. You're raising invoices in accelerate and two separate zero accounts. Like this is ridiculous. Like this is ridiculous, yeah really do an audit of?

Speaker 1: 30:36

your systems.

Speaker 2: 30:37

Figure out what systems you're actually using and then what your systems can actually use, and start to use the systems that give you the most bad fever.

Speaker 1: 30:49

Yeah, totally, I totally agree with that. All right, Lauren, this has been fantastic, as per usual. Love having you on. But before we wrap up, what's your biggest tip for trainers and assessors not the RTOs, the trainers and assessors when it comes to navigating these new requirements?

Speaker 2: 31:09

So I think there's still a lot of trainers and assessors that aren't using AI, that are scared of it, that aren't using a lot of trainers and assessors that aren't using AI, that are scared of it, that aren't using a lot of the tools. So, as a trainer and assessor, firefly is a read AI. Okay, I would be getting a subscription for that and utilizing that in any of the meetings that you're running with, like admin staff, or with managers, or with quality staff or with industry. That's going to be a massive help to you later on down the track. If you're not comfortable with GPT, you need to start getting comfortable with it. Your students are using it. So if you're not, you're going to be left behind.

Speaker 1: 31:46

Stop putting your head in the sand.

Speaker 2: 31:48

There's actually, like so many time-saving things that you can do. There's so many like tools and techniques, that where AI can be helping you to work smarter and not harder you know, whether it's producing session plans, whether it's coming up with ideas for the classroom, whether it's helping you to produce some schematics for a build project that you want to do. Start to engage with some of these resources that are going to make your job. Like that's going to allow you to work smarter and not smarter. And you know you don't need to sit there and read a legal instrument, right? I get that. You don't want to do that as a trainer and assessor.

Speaker 2: 32:30

Engage with podcasts. Engage with you know, like, find a couple of decent YouTube channels. You know Mark Miles is great for training content. You and I both have podcasts for compliance content. Like engage in content in a way that works for you.

Speaker 2: 32:47

You have your own way of wanting to learn, just as all your students have your own way of wanting to learn, whether it's audio, your own way of wanting to learn, whether it's audio, visual, whatever, whether it's talking to someone um, all of those things are possible without utilizing somebody else's time. Figure out the way and the medium that works for you. The rules of evidence are still very clear that you, as the trainer and assessor, are the person who is responsible for determining competency, and so that's never going to change. And so you do have an onus of responsibility for understanding training packages, understanding you know the rules of evidence and the principles of assessment. If you engage in nothing else, engage in PD around that particular topic, because it's going to work to protect you, to make sure that you are not putting yourself into a position where you're at risk yeah, totally, I totally agree with all of that.

Speaker 1: 33:38

Um, so what I'm going to do in the podcast notes, I'm going to include those links. So to your youtube channel, lauren, also have my youtube channel. Will, if you can, share with me some others that we can put in the notes as well, so that we're going to share with you. What are these free things that you can access? And go to these YouTube channels and get started, because I know Lauren's already been doing quite a few videos. I've got quite a few FAQs. As I said, they're only one minute long, so nice and easy to get through as well. So if you're feeling overwhelmed, don't worry. Compliance is a journey and we're here to guide you through this. Join our RTO Community Facebook group. So we've got a Facebook group called RTO Community. We've also got another one called the RTO Job Board, so keep the conversation going. Yeah, thanks for tuning in and we'll see you next time. Thank you very much, lauren. It's always a pleasure.

Speaker 2: 34:35

Thank you.