SPEAKER_02: 0:29

Welcome to the RTO Superhero Podcast with me, Angela Connell Richards, and my special guest, Lauren Hollows. Welcome again, Lauren. Hi guys. Thanks for having me back. So awesome having you online again. So today's uh topic is going to be the changes in training packages. And uh Lauren is doing a special roadshow on um, she's joining a roadshow on the changes and things like that. So we thought this would be a great opportunity to tap into Lauren's brain about what's um what's happening and in particular uh Lauren's specialty, the SIR and the SIT training packages. So let's get started. Uh so both the SIR and SIT training packages are going through major updates. Can you give me an overview of what's changing and why?

SPEAKER_01: 1:21

Yeah, so um I I and Y has been lucky enough to be working with um SAXA, which is Service and Creative Skills Australia, um, for the last couple of months. We have actually been working on the SHB training package, which is for addressing barbering and salon management, but I know that there are lots of other teams at the moment working on dance, and the two big ones coming out are SIR and SIT, and I believe that they're going to be launching um next week. Um, so I'm very excited to actually see what the Saxa team has done to those products because we've got um, I think that they're they're covering all of the coississery, commercial cookery retails in the scope um uh based on their website and everything like that. And obviously, these are qualifications that are just huge in our industry. Um and you know, will obviously have a major impact and have an impact on internationals and on domestics, and um SACS has done a huge amount of consultation. I know I've I've sat in on some of those consultations so far. Um, I'm gonna be joining their roadshow um for you know as one of their SHB representatives, but I will be sitting in on all of the SIR, SIT ones as well because Anawire will be rewriting all of those assessment tools when the new units come out. So the more heads up we have on the changes and everything like that, the the easier our job is gonna make us. And I think the thing that I've actually um really been excited about, like I've been complaining about training packages for legitimately years now, um, about all the things in them that I find frustrating and you know not actually meeting industry requirements. Yeah, and I mean like the slowness of the process is I know something that everyone has always had. And I know pre in previous times I've provided feedback and others have provided feedback, and there's always kind of been a sense of, well, I provided feedback, but I don't know what happened to it.

SPEAKER_02: 3:13

Um, and so I You said it was a different process this time, more transparent.

SPEAKER_01: 3:19

So, like I know that with um like with Saxa, it's going onto a system called Markup. And so with Markup, basically everyone can go in, they've they have to nominate who they are, it's not anonymous, but then they can provide feedback on individual units. And not only can we see can I see my feedback, but I can see your feedback that you put up, or I can see industries, you know, an industry member's feedback that they put up. And so I'm really excited to see sort of the iterative part of this process whereby someone puts an idea out there and people can then jump onto that idea and go, yeah, I love that, I love that, I love that, or hey, but what about this? Or I I kind of disagree with you a little bit because of X, Y, and Z. Um, and so I'm excited to see sort of like an almost online live debate happening over these units and how that then feeds into making these units better. Um, because you know, over the years, like I sat it on a telecommunications one yesterday. Um it was yesterday, I don't know. Um, but I sat it on telecommunications because telecommunications is being updated again. And so, you know, that there's like 180 units that they're updating. And and one of the things that they recommended in that one, they were like, oh, well, we want to get rid of some of these imported units. Um and, you know, a couple of people were like, yeah, okay, cool. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. But if I've got RTOs delivering those, and if you remove those imported units, then we've actually got to add them onto SPO. And that's more of an administrative workload for us. And the gentleman who was running it, a gentleman called Dominic Champano, um, who's a big industry person in that sector, he was like, Oh, that's fair feedback. We'll go and take a look at that before we kind of further that recommendation. Um, and so I think just in general, the experience that I've had with both FSO, which is Future Skills Organization, and SAXA is that there's a lot of people that kind of come from RTO world or have orbited RTO world and understand that feedback and feeling that feedback is actually really well received has been an issue in the past. And so the way that I'm seeing some of the JSCs engage at the moment uh is actually exciting because I do feel like RTOs and um organizations and individuals and industry really do have a chance to like sit and have input. And I know that like I've you know, we we we've got a meeting for one of my RTOs that's gonna sit down with um FSO on this telecommunications project and and go through some key units and some really specific feedback on like this this particular like RJ45 is not a term that's used anymore, or this is not a term that's used anymore, or this is not a technology, this technology has now been superseded. We don't we don't fix these units anymore, we just replace them, right?

SPEAKER_00: 6:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 6:22

So I think that's there's just a very different approach that I'm seeing with some of the JSCs in terms of really taking on that feedback um and really wanting to implement and provide products that are different. And I don't know if that's across all of the JSCs, but certainly with FSO and with um uh with Saxa, I'm I I've been more, I've been far more intimately involved than I ever have in the past, and I'm having a much better understanding of all the stuff that has to happen behind the scenes. And part of that is in response to what's called a new TPOF or new training package organizing framework, whereby the government's saying, look, you've got to go out and you've got to do all of this industry consultation, you need to listen, you need to actually, you know, uh write out every single fit piece of feedback you've received and whether or not you've actioned it, whether you agreed with it, whether or not you disagreed with it. And if you disagree with it, why do you disagree with it? So it's gonna be interesting to see when these training products release. Um there are some new formats. There's a new format A, which is very similar to what we've got now, and then there's a format B, which will remove performance criteria and elements and replace them with knowledge and skills. Um so big changes for RTOs in, you know, again, more changes for RTOs in terms of, you know, having to you know build and redevelop and everything like that, but also I think huge opportunities um to really be listened to. And, you know, if you're an RTO in and you are doing, you know, you you do deliver dents or hospitality or retail, um, you know, when these products launch, it's all available on the on the Saxa websites, available on the FSO websites. We've had really good response rates of like reaching out and going, hey, I've got this RTO, I've got this industry guys that really they want to sit down and they want to give you feedback for an hour on these specific units. And both FSO and and SAXA have been really responsive to go, yep, okay, cool, let's set that meeting up and let's go through that. And I've never had that experience before. Um, and I'm you know, I'm excited to see the result of that product.

SPEAKER_02: 8:33

So all of this has been driven by the VET reform. And uh, you know, we we had change in legislation because it was what they had identified as the training that was being delivered wasn't actually meeting industry needs, and um, and then we had the change in legislation, and that's where they're now going with the training packages. From what you've seen so far, has uh are they aligning more with the industry skill shortages and the gaps that are uh have been identified within in particular the SIR, which is retail, and SIT, which is hospitality. What are the what are the industry impacts that you're seeing on on these training packages that are making a difference?

SPEAKER_01: 9:21

So um, yeah, so again, so I I'm I've been I've been working within SHB, which is hairdressing and barbering. Um there's a different set of consultants that's working with Saxa to do the SIR and the SIT. In the initial consultations that I've sat in, because they did run a range of initial public consultations, um, I understand that they're looking at streaming. Um, so moving like so rather than having separate calls for cookery and for um petisserie and things like that, I know there's discussions around, you know, being able to streamline that. I know there's lots of feedback from industry that continues to be about duplication in training packages. So, like whether we're looking at, you know, SIT is really bad for this one. Like, we spend a lot of time writing SIT. And when you look at like all those SITHCC units, in every unit you've got, okay, read the recipe, identify the Misson Plus, um, you know, check your equipment, make sure your ingredients are fresh. Um it's not until you get down to like uh to element like four or five that you're actually focusing on the skill of making whatever particular dishes they are. And I guess what I would be hoping to see, and the the consult, like when markup comes up, you can guarantee me and my team are gonna be jumping in there. I would really like to see a lot more clarity in and around things like um they've got that list of skills. So like you've got to be able to, um, you've got to be able to drill in, you've got to be able to steam, you've got to be able to bake, you've got to be able to, and the way that it's included and written in the unit at the moment is a little bit ambiguous as to whether or not we need to do that every single time. So, like if I can steam a carrot and I can steam a fish, do I need to also steam for poultry and for beef and for gluten-free products? Or is it sufficient that I've demonstrated steaming once or twice? So, you know, this is where like you've got huge amounts of duplication. And I know we've had to create recipes previously because you know needed the ingredients. Well, yeah, like it was add ingredient, or it was like, especially in some of those cake patisseries units, there's a garnish that we haven't managed to include, you know, like you've got to have six garnishes, um, you've got to have six toppings, you've got to have three sources. Um, and so it from it's very challenging from a developer's perspective.

SPEAKER_02: 11:56

And I know when we go in, and for the RTO to be able to provide all the ingredients and the equipment and everything.

SPEAKER_01: 12:04

And the cost of it is also like is huge. Like in the um seafood unit, you've got a whole bag of fish, right? If you if you don't choose that correctly, that's so expensive to be able to roll that unit out. Um, and so what I think about prerequisite of having a set three in retail or equivalent experience. Different state funding bodies interpret that very differently. We've had massive problems with New South Wales and how they interpret that criteria. So I would really hope that when the SIR training package launches, that there's a lot of active discussion around should that criteria should be in there. I've got to be honest, personally, I don't think you should have to have a cert three to go into a cert four in retail. I think you should have a relevant amount of experience. I think you should be in a supervisor role. Um, but I think if you've got a couple of years' experience of working in retail, you should be able to go directly into a cert four in retail. As long as you've got the experience and you're working in a relevant work role, right? Um, so I think that this is where we would want to see some of those changes be made.

SPEAKER_02: 13:50

Yeah. And we want to make sure that the RTO has a good criteria for that as well. So um, so how do you think this is going to impact trainers and assessors?

SPEAKER_01: 14:02

Okay, so step one for trainers and assessors is I've had all my trainers and assessors, I've said to them, when public links come out, we need to be jumping in there. And, you know, let's have a training, like let's do a session. And so I've got a couple of colleges that we're gonna have all eight of our trainers jump in and we'll do um, I'll get them, I'll I'll have the system up and we'll go through as a group and we'll put our feedback into it, right? Um, so I've said first first and foremost, we need to go through the units that are our pain points, and within different RTOs and different training packages, we've got different pain points, right? Um, I think some of those core units we need to be looking at. So, like, you know, if you're a hospitality trainer, XFSA 005, um, H C C C 777, um, you know, like pick those key sorted units and make sure we go and add feedback onto that. From an RTO perspective, you need to have a plan. Okay, so understanding the whole system, and it's a bit different as to whether or not like you're a CRIPOSS or a funded, but I'm gonna go with funded at the moment because this has a massive impact for funding for people, right? So I'm a funded RTO delivering SIT, SIR, SHB, DANS, whatever. And I know my training package is coming up for review. It's gonna launch next year, 2020 during during next year, from the draft, let's work with the draft and put a plan together on let's assume the draft is 80, 90 percent pretty much where it's gonna be. Let's start working out where the big changes are and work out what our development plan is gonna have to be from the point that it actually launches, right? Once we've got our development plan for how it actually, what happens when it actually launches, I then need to figure out what strategy I'm gonna take. Because if, for example, right, I've got some RTOs looking at this and they're going, okay, well, funding, we've got funding across every single state, but my funding is gonna roll out over a three-year period across these states. We've got a one-year teach out, Victoria will come online first, and you know, probably by the time WA will be probably 12 months behind everybody else. So I'm rolling out and I'm gonna be dual delivering these tools over the next two to three years. If that's gonna be the case, do I need to develop a set of assessment tools that are gonna meet the old unit and the new unit? If it's a total rewrite and it's like the units are not equivalent, how are we gonna work out our transition plans? Right? Are we gonna, are we gonna write dual tools? Are we gonna write gap assessments? You know, are we gonna cut off enrollment, stop at this point, and then move into this point? And again, depending on your state model and everything like that, you're gonna have different strategies, right? But at a management level, you need to be sitting with your trainers and going, right, how different are these units? Okay, given the level of difference, this is the strategy that we're gonna go with for our toport. That's what's gonna work. And you need to have that plan in place pretty much from the day that the training product launches.

SPEAKER_02: 17:16

Yeah. In order to do that transition, you you need to be on the ball straight away. So I I love your idea about the draft working with the draft. And that's what I did with the legislation changes in standards. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:28

Absolutely. And that's what all of us did. And we know that there's tiny tits, you know, there's always tweaks and things that they change. But I think in the majority of things, you can kind of work on that 80-20 rule of like you might see a 20% change, but broadly we then know what we want to, how we want to approach this process. And then once you've approached the process and you figured out how you're going to transition it, then from the day that that training product launches, you then have a communication strategy for your employers, for your for your own internal staff, for your clients, your employers, and for your students. And again, leading into like the new standards of keeping, you know, everyone abreast of changes and things like that. You know, in the first couple of weeks, your website gets updated to denote that this is now a superseded qualification. Your enrollment forms get updated to denote that you are being enrolled in a superseded qualification. And then you start your communication strategy of yes, we're enrolling you in a superseded qualification, we're going to deliver these three units to you first because we know that they're equivalent and we can credit transfer them over in the next couple of months, and then we'll roll you into the new qualification when the funding rolls out for it. Or the, you know, these units are equivalent, we deliver those first, then these units we're going to develop dual tools for. And then we know by the time that the new students get to the end of that process, the new funding will be out, and we can flick them into the new tools from there. Right? Yeah. Having a good solid transition plan and communication plan in place is going to make your RTO run a lot. And really starting now. Yeah. And in certain spaces, like this will affect apprenticeships for some. Apprenticeships has almost always been given a two to three year extension period. But it has to be initiated by the RTOs going to the JSC, getting support from the JSC to get the extension from ASCAR. So again, from day one, all of those apprenticeship qualifications, you know, hairdressing, um, cookery, um, you know, all of that sort of stuff, from day one, it needs to be a really quick process, telecommunications will be the same, of going to the going to FSO, going to Saxon and saying, right, guys, you're updating an apprenticeship. We want a three-year extension process so that we're not negatively impacting our guys that are now a year and a half into their three-year apprenticeship, you know, or two years into a four-year apprenticeship. We need that three-year extension process so that we can teach these ones out and so that the new ones that we're enrolling today, we've got six months that we can build before we enroll them and then push them into the new product. But that has to be instigated by the RTOs, pushed into the F uh pushed into the JSCs and then approved through ASPA.

SPEAKER_02: 20:23

Yeah, yeah. And uh the other one I recommend is we always recommend all of the RTOs should have a governance meeting, and at that governance meeting once a month or whatever their regular cycle is, they're recording what's happening. So what's changing in the training package, and that's where you could be monitoring your transition plan or the build-out of the transition plan. And then you've got it minuted as well for um as evidence. But yeah, so I'm gonna wrap all of that up into another checklist um because uh this it's been very, very helpful to identify okay, what do we need to do as an RTO to prepare for these changes? And one of the first things that we've I've identified from what you've said is first of all, you actually really need to be looking at the draft, draft um training product, and what are those changes are going to be because you're not going to be able to draw up your plan unless you know what you're in for first. So, first of all, is doing that and then starting to develop what is going to be your transition plan. And what you said there, Lauren, was meet up with your team, your trainers, um, and most probably your the developers of the training and assessment materials to identify okay, what are the changes, what's going to be different, what's going to be completely what, and what needs to be written as new, what can what are the um equivalent training uh units, because if it's equivalent, you want to get that done as soon as possible so you can just do focus on those and then transition over to the new new training units. So uh so we've got the plan then, so we can uh then populate the plan based on what that research was, the superseded units, the direct equivalents, things like that. Then it's the communication plan. So, how are you gonna communicate this with your students, with your apprentices, with your trainers and assessors, with your industry, and how are we ensuring that not only are we transitioning over to the new training product, but we're also got a whole plan together with how we're gonna communicate it and implement it. So, anything I missed there, Lauren? I think you got it off. I'm a good listener. I was like, okay, what okay, this is what we're gonna do. All right, so um, so the I think the biggest advice I've heard from Lauren today is don't wait. Uh, you should be looking at it now and looking at that whole transition. Um, you know, being a leader in the vet sector as an RTO, you really should be on the ball when it comes to uh that transitional teacher. And I often find whenever I deliver training around that area, transitional teacher, it has the most confusion. Most people don't understand what the process should be. And I I think they think it's just like a it's not a policy that just gets gone going. It's like you you've actually got quite a few steps involved, and it's that whole transition plan of how you're going to do that. Um, and it's it's not just for your students, it's your trainers, it's your admin, it's your marketing, it's your industry, if you've got employers, they need to understand what's going on as well. So yeah, I wouldn't be hesitating. I'd be uh putting that plan in together now, um, making sure you're ready prior to the um prior to the rollout.

SPEAKER_01: 23:58

So Lauren, um like if you're not sure who your JSCs are, if you jump onto TGA and you go and click on your training package, it will tell you who your jobs and skills agency is, jobs and skills uh counsel is, you can go into that website and you can sign up for updates on your on your specific training packages. You'll see in there, like they have to basically give a plan of the next couple of years. So you'll see if your training products are actually coming up for review. And it is really worthwhile to make sure, especially if you're like a compliance, if you're the lead compliance person in your organization or you're the lead curriculum development or the lead trainer, make sure you're signed up for those updates so that you are aware early in the process and you can be involved in the conversation.

SPEAKER_02: 24:46

And if you just go on to training.gov.au, on the front page they have training packages that are under review. So that actually tells you which training packages are under review and the JSC. So you can go straight to the JSC from there as well. The other one I recommend is if you haven't done so already, subscribe to training.gov.au, to the training package that you have on your scope, and most importantly, to your RTO. Because if there's any changes to your RTO or any training products on your scope, it will send you an update from TGA so you'll know what's happening. We do it for every one of our clients. We subscribe to their RTO on TGA so that we know any changes that come up so we can notify our clients and say, hey, did you know this is happening and that you need to prepare or if we need to put a transition plan. Okay, so thank you very much, Lauren. That was fantastic. Um, can you just do a little spiel for your roadshow that you're involved with, just so if anybody wants to join in, they can attend.

SPEAKER_01: 25:50

Yes, so I will also make sure that I send the link to Angela and put the link below. It is Saxa Takes Australia Tour. And so Saxa is going to be leading consultation for dance, uh, sorry, dance, retail, hospitality, and uh beauty and hairdressing. Um, and they will be going to every single state starting with Hobart on November 8th, uh, finishing up with Canberra, and we're literally going everywhere. So like Darwin, Perth, um, there will be in face-to-face consultations in every major city and state. So if you are an RTO that has S I T, S I R, S H B, C U A on your scope, you should be signing up and coming and saying hi and um understanding what's happening in the training package update and being able to voice your say. Again, we will put the link for the Saxa website um in the show notes.

SPEAKER_02: 26:44

Yeah, and I highly recommend getting along to those sessions because you can ask questions direct then and actually get some feedback uh there uh at the session. So uh yes, I do recommend that you uh if those training products are on your scope, get along to the roadshow. Uh Lauren's going to be leaving her chickens for uh three weeks and heading on the road. Or on the road or flying, I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_01: 27:14

Flying. So yeah, way too many flights and too many hotels. Um the only the highlight for me is that I get to go back to Perth where my 18-year-old son is. Um so I do get to have puddles and give my give my oldest son a bit of a hug and um and have a bit of attractive defense. So that will be nice.

SPEAKER_02: 27:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. Okay, thank you very much once again, Lauren. Uh, by the time this podcast comes out, we'll be very close to the Velve Conference. So uh if you're going to the VEL conference, uh both Lauren and I are going to be there. We'd love to catch up with you and uh find out what you what's going on in your sector. And um and I'll be speaking at the conference. So I'm going to be talking about support services uh and that whole process that you need to have within your RTO. I'll be on the second day on the last session of the second day. So I'd love to catch up with you there. Thank you again, Lauren. Uh, once again, always a pleasure to have you on our RTO superhero podcast. Thank you. You have a great day. You too. Thank you. My dogs are thinking.